Debate - Using Tools vs No Tools

[coolbeans326]

Well, there seems to be a lot of problems with this, and so it should be settled. I'll start off with an argument.

What is the point of No Limits? It's to build and ride your own rides. But it doesn't describe how you have to build it. And so when your rating a coaster, it should be on the out come, and not how you did it.
Ask Buster, and Real, it still takes them a lot of work, and knowledge of no limits in order to build thier rides with tools. How many of you can actually make the auto-heartliner work correctly? Or have the Auto-depumper work to its fullest, not many. As Real and Buster have stated before, you aren't a good designer in the first place, those tools won't do you any good.

I think it boils down to this:

When you make a product, as long as the end result is QUALITY, what does it matter?

If someone builds a car using their own 2 hands, from scratch and builds a great car, but someone else can devise new tools to do it quicker, but the EXACT same quality car, when judging the end result, what does it matter?


Sure you can say "well, he used his own 2 hands" but for the other guy, you could say "he was smart and intelligent enough to use his brain to think ahead and make tools to do the job faster without loss of quality"


It goes both ways. If people want to rate down for using tools, you can rate down for NOT using tools. The tools are not magic wands and a ton of attention is still needed. I would bet I spend as many hours as anyone on my rides and I still use tools. But for me, if you dont use tools, its your own choice. But if people want to impose their own beliefs (thats all this is) then others can do the same.


Its a double edged sword I think people would rather not want to deal with.
So just rate the END result and not what it took to get there.

I don't think it should matter if a builder uses tools or not. It should only be the final outcome that is judged.
The current tools availible will not build the track for you (unless you are a math god) and it is quite obvious when prefabs from elementary are just slapped together to form a track.

I don't see the point of rating down for using tools. It isn't like engineers sit at their desks doing the same equations over and over and over again. Instead, they have formulas and calculators that they just plug simple numbers into and get the answer quickly. There is no point in doing more work than you have to.

If you rate down for people using tools you should think about this. Do you use a calculator, dictionary, ruler or a phone book? All of those are tools to make daily life easier, simpler and faster. The same thing can be said about the tools for NoLimits.

When you make a product, as long as the end result is QUALITY, what does it matter?

The same could be said for, some guy is sitting his maths test, John next to him has studied for months putting all his time and effort into making sure high gets a high grade. Bill on the other forget to revise and copies every answer John writes down, yet both of them come out with a B grade. In that respect it is not fair.

I personaly dont think there is a possible answer to this debate, it just comes down to use the tools or dont. Personaly the only tool i would and have used is the tracksmoother. I mean i dont mean to contradict myself to much, but as you said Real is saves you time...but then it also takes away the satisfaction of smoothing it by hand etc etc. Its really a no win situation imo

[gouldy]

Edge has said exactly what I think about this whole thing. I have used tools before to help build a perfectly heartlined track and the end result was better than any other ride I've built before, but I didn't upload the ride because in myself, I felt that I couldn't say that track was 'mine'. I felt no where near the same satisfaction from completeing a good track as I have gained from cpompleteing tracks to a slightly lower level, but built with just me involved and no tools. Yes, you all made good points about just rating the 'end result' and you went on to give examples of supposidly the same thing in life, but the problem there is, this is not life this is actually a GAME. Lets take a game like GTASA for instance, if someone completes that game using cheats to help them, its quicker and easier to do right? Well, do you look at that person with the same respect as you'd look at someone who had completed the game without cheats at all? No you wouldn't, and I'm doing the same here, someone who makes a great track without using tools, deserves much more respect for what they have done than someone who does use tools to help build a ride.

Someone who has built a geat ride without tools deserves more plaudits than someone who has used tools. So if two rides are uploaded, both are worth 10, but one has used tools and one hasn't. When rating, what do you do then? You can't give the person who hasn't used tools an 11 for your rating so you have to rate the one who has used tools a 9, so that you can give the person who hasn't used tools, a 10 ... If you follow all that.

Well thats what I think anyway, and its what I will continue to think.

In the end EVERYBODY uses tools. So unless your're crafting your tracks by hand in a hex editor, get off your high horse and judge by the output.

Ok, so you (gouldy and probably edge (damn, Tyler, did you have to post just before me?)) are one of the few that don't rate the track, but the builder.

Personally I will continue to rate tracks because that is what I'm interested in. I couldn't care less about the person that built it or how he built it.

Buster.

[Kev]

Originally posted by Tyler

In the end EVERYBODY uses tools. So unless your're crafting your tracks by hand in a hex editor, get off your high horse and judge by the output.

Agreed. The output is what matters, not how it was built. I will never dock points on a track because of tool use, nor will I dock points for not using tools. Despite what some people think, using the tools on a typical 'hand built' coaster does not make a perfect track {take a look at my recent uploads for a good example of that}. You will still end up hand tweaking the track even after using the tools. As for some of the math generated coasters that you occasionally see uploaded by a few people, you can also find flaws in these coasters too. Lastly, and most importantly, there is NO tool available that will make your ride fun.

[|)]

one of the few that don't rate the track, but the builder.

So your one of the people that rates the tools? As said there is no solution to this. Plus its not rating the builder at all, its rating teh building technique, by using tools you really imo cant have a high BT because your really not doing everything in this section, our just building the track preparing it for the tools, the tools ultimatly perfect the track, so a perfect rating in the bT section for using tools imo isnt fair. The only real way about judging a track these days is by originality - layout and adrenaline

Hes not rating the tools, THE TRACK.

And your analogy is a bit far fetched Edge.


It would be a bit more like:

Kid A studies for test for months, gets an A.
Kid B studies 1 hour before, gets an A.


Kid A used long methods to study with, such as reading over everything 100 times.
Kid B used new methods to study, Flash Cards, etc and got his studying done sooner.



There is a solution, but Ill tell you guys right now that rating like that will kill the community. It will turn everyone elitist and thats been said to be a problem at another site, which I doubt you want here. Building Technique has ALWAYS represented the END result, not the road it took to get there.

If I put in 100 hours of work on a track using tools, and another guy puts in 100 hours of work without tools, wheres the difference here?



You all, and this still amazes me, still forget that you still need to be VERY good at hand building (or math, which theres only a few people like that so you can rule it out) to use these tools.

If the tools ever did anything for me and took away from my handbuilding skills, I would have quite a LONG time ago. Alot of you missed the tirade I went on when the first smoother came out. Mostly because I didnt understand it.

[gouldy]

I want Real to build a track without using any tools at all so that I can compare it with tracks he's made using tools. You see, like I said, I have made a track using a heartline tool before and I certainly noticed the difference from my other tracks, the heartlining was clearly better on the track I used the tool with. So in my opinion, I had cheated to get to a higher level of build technique so I would HAVE to expect to get a lower rating for that. I wouldn't expect or WANT it any other way. I'm not damning anyone for using tools, I just think that more effort would have to be put into making a perfect track without using tools, than if you were to make a perfect track with help from tools. Just the same as in any other walk of life, effort should be rewarded. Let me ask you, would you rate someone down for making a track from almost completely pre-fab elements? Because I think that is almost exactly the same thing, yes you may have built the element in the first place, but youve had the computer perfect it for you so therefore it isn't built by you anymore, because its changed from what you built. Ahwell, I'm not gonna change your mind, I think I'm right and you think your right, doesn't mean either of us are right .... pffft

Just thought, you know the words "Build technique", well, that basically means, The technique you have used to build the ride. THAT is the key thing here, I think you shouldn't be able to get a perfect score in this section of the rating if you use tools, yes you can get a perfect score in the other parts because the height, speed etc etc, is all determined by you. But when it comes to build technique, if you use tools, not everything is determined by you so you cannot be awarded all of the points, if you can see what I'm getting at, whereas someone who builds a perfect ride using no tools at all, can get a perfect mark in this section of the rating.

I think that using tools are fine, because face it, some people are not the best builders, these tools are just there to help people out, and yes everybody use's tools, tools just help your progress as a builder, well...thats how i think of it, and even more so, Buster says in the readme that his tracksmoother doesnt make terrible tracks into great tracks, so in my opinion thats how i think of it [:)]

Originally posted by gouldy
I want Real to build a track without using any tools at all so that I can compare it with tracks he's made using tools.

Rest assured that he knows how to build without tools. He made quality work way before ANY tool was out.

I'm not damning anyone for using tools

Yet you rate lower? Makes no sense.

Just the same as in any other walk of life, effort should be rewarded.

And you think it takes no skill to build a ride with tools?

Let me ask you, would you rate someone down for making a track from almost completely pre-fab elements?

Well, I obviously wouldn't because my new rides are 100% prefabbed.

Because I think that is almost exactly the same thing

Indeed; and it takes skill/knowledge to insert the element fluently.

Just thought, you know the words "Build technique", well, that basically means, The technique you have used to build the ride.

No, it means thechnical quality of the track. How well are forces controlled? Does E-Stop work? Are there any collisions. Is the MCBR working? Does the timing work or is there a big wait on the last brake? Would te supports hold the thing up? etc. Those things are BT.

But when it comes to build technique, if you use tools, not everything is determined by you so you cannot be awarded all of the points

And once again you rate the person who made the track instead of rating the track itself. BTW, even if you use tools, you are still responsible for the output. It seems as if you think that all those tools deliver top-notch quality right away. You still have to work out the mess they can cause or tweak the track to get good results.
An example that everyone knows: The Woodbuilder. Of course you could just let it build some supports, but if you don't manually tweak the supports, you won't score high points for those supports. Not because you used a tool, but because you probably forgot to clean up the mess it can produce.

someone who builds a perfect ride using no tools at all, can get a perfect mark in this section of the rating.

Just fair. In the end it's everyones personal decision how he gets the result. If someone likes spending hours upon hours to handsmooth that one tiny bump, so be it. But if someone uses the smoother, he still got the same result. So the outcome is the same and so should be the rating.

Buster.

i agree with you buster, 100%!

[gouldy]

I never at any point said that the computer just magics an element there, or anything even like that. You forget that I said that I have used tools before.

Yeah, what you said about the build technique is wrong, build technique surely is the technique you have used to build the ride. All the other things you described just fall under the "technical" umbrella, not the actual build technique though. Tell me, how does the word "Technique" describe the E-stop working or the g's being in check, its DOESN'T describe those things, therefore it doesn't mean those things, it means, the technique used to construct the ride, its a seperate thing to the actual technical side of the ride.

I never at any point said that it takes no skill to use tools either. What I will say however, is that it takes MORE skill to achieve the same results without using tools.

PumpMeUp, I know what you said is right, it doesn't turn terrible track into a great track, but what it goes do, is turn a great track into a greater track, which otherwise would have taken longer to do without tools and would have also included more effort and don't another one of you tell me that it doesn't because I know from experience that it does.

Buster, when I said I'm not damning people for using tools, I'm not honestly, what I'm doing is not rating them up for a certain aspect of the ride building. Hard to explain I guess, what I'm actually doing is giving extra credit to people for not using tools and doing it all themselves without any help from tools.

Buster, when you say it takes knowledge and skill to insert an element, I take it by that you mean Not very much knowledge and skill. you're trying to tell me that it takes the same amount of skill to insert an element as it does to build that element yourself .... right, yeah I totally agree with you without any hints of sarcasm at all as I roll my eyes.

Wait a minute. Did we really create a thread to debate this? What's next? Perhaps we will debate on the fact that your method of cutting the lawn is better than mine? What's the freaking difference? The end result is that the grass is cut - which is the same result (analogy-wise) as the coaster is built.

Geesh folks, grow up and shut up -- it does not matter how the coaster is built. Even with tools, you need to remember that if you put crap in you get smoother, nicer crap back out.

Bottom line, the coaster has to be made properly to begin with, which takes an INCREDIBLE amount talent to begin with - and tools merely enhance the final outcome. Perhaps learning how to properly use tools (to the nay-sayers here) might make YOUR coasters better, eh? Ever think of that???

So one more time in case it got lost in the wording: Enough folks. Grow up and shut up. Geesh.

Well one thing is for sure. Imo building coasters in NL is just in no way fun anymore. There seems to be some kind of invisible standard you have to make and the tiniest bump is damning. I think the whole scene is BS these days. Back in the early days it was a case of building a coaster and no one really cared about the things that dont matter. These days if you put a tree 10cm too close to the track someone will complain, the tiniest indectable bump which you cannot get rid of again just kills your ride by these days standards. Sure things have moved on but the fun just isnt there. Everyone is just too uptight and constantly trying to compare dick sizes, which is really what NL is boiling down to these days

^ Edge, on what you just said ... I agree with you 100%. It seems that perhaps a referandum is in order on getting back to the fun of designing. However, I do think there ought to be SOME standards for designing, or we get joys like:

http://www.coastercrazy.com/track_exchang ... p?tid=6842

Followed with threads like:

http://www.coastercrazy.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7557

[gouldy]

Exaaaaarctly, nice one Edge. This is what I was on about, theres a great amount of pride and self satisfaction involved in making a ride yourself, which is what NL should be about, be appeased with the size of your own penis, to refer to Edge's analogy. But NL turning or has already turned infact, into something very different to that. The use of tools boils down I think to trying to show off to other people, its probably entriely sub concious but that is what I think.

[Oscar]

What edge said That is why i have not uploaded anything in ages. I have tons of cool stuff, but people would tear it up when they see some of the minor bumps in it and what not. I remember the good ol days when building coasters for fun was fun. Now everyone does complain about this or that and never truly comments on the experience except for rare occasions. I have nothing against tool builders and raw builders. I can work with both, though I prefer to build my own tooless [pshades] Anyway ladies and gentlemen, keep it nice I sense the name calling is gonna start soon

Apart from bein off topic, I don't get what you are saying (Edge and Gouldy), or rather I don't get what your problem is.

So, Edge, you don't want to compare your dick? Yet you care about ratings? weird.

And Gouldy, I use tools to make my rides better. Has to do with pride and self satisfaction. Sure enough I could build a good ride without any tool, but I constantly try to improve my trackbuilding and therefor I use everything there is that can help achieve this.

Buster.

YAWN!

[gouldy]

Well constantly try to improve your trackbuilding by PRACTISING! hey, thats the entire point of the game, to get better and better at it and have fun while you're doing it, whereas you've just completely missed all that part out ... well, I for one feel sorry for you but there ya go ey. You won't ever feel the same satisfaction that I can feel from completing a great ride and getting plaudits for doing so. If I uploaded a ride which had used tools to aid construction, no matter what rating I got, I wouldn't be happy with it, it could get a 10 for I cared but I still wouldn't even consider it to be my own track.

[Kev]

The horse is a bloody pulp...long past dead. Should we continue beating it?

I agree that it's an interesting topic to debate, but it doesn't sound like either side of the issue is going to change their minds anytime soon. Just think, none of this would be an issue if we had comments only on coasters instead of numerical ratings.

[Oscar]

we want to add comments to the ratings, there's no denying that from the staff's part, but the usual, we lack such funds to invest in it. Right now we're barely making it through. the ads are generating like 10 cents a day on average and stuff so what the site gets is as much as I can put into it. I am full time emplyee, full time school student so most my funds go into that. As soon as we get some extra cash in, or at leats enough we'll add comments only into the ratings as well which should help some of this out [:)] So everyone, start sending your donations in!