El Toro versus The Voyage (Updated With POV Vid!!)

[jayman]

yeah.. just think.. without all the wood frosting think about how bitchen of a steel coaster they could build... whoooops.. did i just say that? yeah... that'd be something to see.but still... i'd love to ride el toro.. i certainly wouldn't complain... that hill would be worth it alone..

Originally posted by Nitro1118

Originally posted by jayman

^my point.. reinforced. some people like an instant rush, that ends as soon as it started .. no problem... that's valid.. i'm one of those who wants several very intense moments that lasts a few minutes, rather than one or two "very very very very' intense moments and screeching to a halt.. i'll spend the whole day at knott's riding ghost rider, even if it meant an hour wait each time, and skip xcellerator even if the line was only 20 minutes. id choose hang gliding over bungee jumping.. etc.

One or 2 moments then screeching to a halt? EVERY element on Toro is extremely thrilling and intense....I count 9 elements that are very intense and extremely thrilling on the ride. It is 4,400ft, which makes it one of the 15 longest wooden coasters in the country...it isn't a short ride. Especially most top 10 coasters are only 10-20 seconds longer, and far less intense and thrilling.

Ride the coaster before you judge, especially considering this is far from a one trick pony and "short".

You couldn't be more wrong in your arguments. I mean, sure, I think Toro is great as well, but just as well I think Voyage is much better and can fully understand those who think Toro is dissapointing. Most top 10 coasters are much longer than 10-20 secs. In fact, the only coaster on Amusement Today's top10 steel coasters list that was shorter than 2 mins. was TTD. The rest were quite long. And as far as woodies are concerned, Toro is shorter than all the woodies on the top10 list as far as elements and points of intensity are concerned, and likely in time of duration as well when excluding the lifthill. I mean, come on, Toro has only 7 moments of airtime, and very limited lats. It's as if Intamin built a Steel hyper layout, cut out the middle part, separated the air from the turns, and then turned it into wood and left it at that. The way I see it, Voyage is a "look at us we can build the most amazing ride ever and do as much as possible with what we're given" kind of woodie, while Toro is a "we can make a woodie that is as short as possible with maintaining an enjoyable and intense ride in a small area" type of woodie, and for me, I'd prefer to go on Voyage over Toro anyday.

Very limited lats? Guessing you haven't ridden yet...El Toro's lats are quite strong and dynamic in many areas. The turnaround has medium lats followed by extremely heavy g's, and the twister section is full of strong lats making you feel as if you're upper body is coming out of the train. It may not have lats like Voyage, but they're nothing to laugh at.

I'm sure GAdv opted out of an Intamin Mega instead going with the prefab for several reasons...one, they have Nitro and they don't want to overshadow it too much with a more thrilling ride of similar characteristics. Two, they only have one wooden coaster and another would also help variety in the park. Plus, having this woodie be smooth and thrilling would ensure that the GP loves it, and doesn't really have any reason to come off the ride feeling let down. The prefab was the perfect choice to get thrill while diversifying their lineup.

Anyways, I really don't care whether it's wooden or not, as the experience is the most important thing. I do think being wooden helped the experience in several ways; while riding in the back car, it's amazing to hear the sound of upstops get really loud while the train accelerates downward giving you some crazy airtime. You don't get that sound on Intamin hypers, and on rides like B&M's, the sound is distributed throughout the ride, which IMO is cool and improves the ride experience, but not as much as on a prefab because that sound really accents the most exciting parts of the ride, just as great sound effects and music increases exciting scenes and events in movies. Headchoppers formed by the sea of wooden supports also make the ride feel even faster than it is.

Voyage does a bunch of stuff and does it very well, and El Toro does a limited number of things (but not nearly as limited as people are saying... 1 trick pony? Far from it...) but what everything it does is highly thrilling. I haven't been on Voyage, but I think it'd be a tossup for me as to which is best. They're both amazing.


jayman, it's funny how you complain about El Toro's lenght, yet say "that hill would be worth it alone." It's almost like your'e concentrating on one part of the ride, be it the first drop or one of the camelbacks, and forgetting all the other parts that really make it a complete ride unlike some rides you spoke of like Xcelerator.

Originally posted by e-man

You couldn't be more wrong in your arguments. I mean, sure, I think Toro is great as well, but just as well I think Voyage is much better and can fully understand those who think Toro is dissapointing. Most top 10 coasters are much longer than 10-20 secs. In fact, the only coaster on Amusement Today's top10 steel coasters list that was shorter than 2 mins. was TTD. The rest were quite long. And as far as woodies are concerned, Toro is shorter than all the woodies on the top10 list as far as elements and points of intensity are concerned, and likely in time of duration as well when excluding the lifthill. I mean, come on, Toro has only 7 moments of airtime, and very limited lats. It's as if Intamin built a Steel hyper layout, cut out the middle part, separated the air from the turns, and then turned it into wood and left it at that. The way I see it, Voyage is a "look at us we can build the most amazing ride ever and do as much as possible with what we're given" kind of woodie, while Toro is a "we can make a woodie that is as short as possible with maintaining an enjoyable and intense ride in a small area" type of woodie, and for me, I'd prefer to go on Voyage over Toro anyday.

ONLY 7 moments of airtime? How many moments of airtime does MF got? Nitro? AC? MF has 4, 3 of which are light floater. AC and Nitro both have between 7-8 moments of airtime, and the forces on don't nearly match Toro's. Toro has 1 less moment of airtime than EGF, 2 less than S:RoS at SFNE, 1 more than the cloned S:RoS', etc...oh, and Toro has more forceful airtime than any of those mentioned.

There are VERY few coasters over 2min. Most rides count lift, brakerun, etc... From first drop to brakerun, Toro is 50 seconds. Raven is shorter than Toro from drop to brakerun,and is consistently rated top 10. Toro also provides so many more forces than Raven. MF is about 55 seconds from drop to brakerun, and is consistently rated in top 3 in every poll it is in. Get my point? Toro has 13 notable elemtns in it, each own providing high forces. There are very few coasters, even if they are over 2min long, that have 13 highly notable elements. And once again, no wooden coaster in the top 10 reaches top of 175ft lift in 10 seconds, and none of the intensity that Toro has throughout whole ride.


Very limited in lats? Toro throws you into the side of the train in the twister section.

I NEVER said Toro was better or looked better than Voyage, but saying Voyage is better than Toro because it feels like a wooden coaster is ridiculous. Who cares if it has wooden supports and rides like a steel coaster? It cost just as much as a hyper coaster that size (between 15-17 million) and packs more of a punch than pretty much any Intamin hyper. They didn't make it longer because it was wooden, it was because of the small space available.

An amazing ride is an amazing ride, and Toro and Voyage are both. If you prefer the more traditional wooden coaster that samples the best elements from every top 10 wooden coaster, go ride Voyage. If you want insane airtime and itnensity that samples every great Intamin mega coaster while keeping the traditional wooden look and having a few unique elements, go ride Toro.

Sure, there are lats existent in the high speed turns, the turnaround, and others, but not the kind of lats I personally like. For me, the good kind of lats are the ones like the little drop turn after Boss's first drop, where you're literally thrown to the side, rather than just a high speed turn with strong banking. Also, I don't really understand how people can say El Toro is as good as or better than the Voyage. Maybe I'm missing something, but Voyage has more lats, twice as much airtime at least, is longer in distance and time of ride, features numerous tunnels, and is in a nicer setting, so how can it be said that El Toro is as good or better than Voyage? I understand what you said about the issue with having Nitro too, but the thing is if SFGA felt the need for a gp-pleasing woodie, why not build one with a better layout and less height, instead of building something like El Toro which is just like a wooden Nitro tuned down layout wise.

Originally posted by e-man

Sure, there are lats existent in the high speed turns, the turnaround, and others, but not the kind of lats I personally like. For me, the good kind of lats are the ones like the little drop turn after Boss's first drop, where you're literally thrown to the side, rather than just a high speed turn with strong banking. Also, I don't really understand how people can say El Toro is as good as or better than the Voyage. Maybe I'm missing something, but Voyage has more lats, twice as much airtime at least, is longer in distance and time of ride, features numerous tunnels, and is in a nicer setting, so how can it be said that El Toro is as good or better than Voyage? I understand what you said about the issue with having Nitro too, but the thing is if SFGA felt the need for a gp-pleasing woodie, why not build one with a better layout and less height, instead of building something like El Toro which is just like a wooden Nitro tuned down layout wise.

Voyage has more moments of airtime, but none nearly as strong as Toro. Sometimes people like the shorter, more intense coaster that does so much in a fairly short amount of time (although once again, Toro isn't a short ride!).

[jayman]

Originally posted by Nitro1118

An amazing ride is an amazing ride, and Toro and Voyage are both. If you prefer the more traditional wooden coaster that samples the best elements from every top 10 wooden coaster, go ride Voyage. If you want insane airtime and itnensity that samples every great Intamin mega coaster while keeping the traditional wooden look and having a few unique elements, go ride Toro.

exactly[approve]

Wooden Nitro tuned down layout wise? haha, seriously dude, stop talking. Completely. Notice how neither myself nor Nitro1118 have been on Voyage, so we're not saying that El Toro's better. We're saying many of you are crazy for talking bad about it when you *obviously* have not been on it. We're also stating reasons why El Toro is great, but yet you all continue to argue based on misguided preconceptions.

pdonahue wrote up several paragraphs about why he thinks it's better, and considering he's actually been on both, his argument relating both experiences is the only one valid in this thread (assuming he's the only one who's been on both...unless I missed something, he's the only one to say he has here). Ofcourse we all can say what we think they're like when we look at them, but don't you think several people who have been on a ride, and are saying the same thing about it actually know what they're talking about?

Especially your last paragraph e-man is exactly why GAdv built an Intamin woodie...An Intamin mega would have a vastly different experience than Nitro, but may look similar to GP, which could mean less admissions. GAdv then goes with the wooden coaster because of that, hoping that it being wooden would help make it *look* different than Nitro, though ofcourse retaining a completely different feel like the mega would. In your case, GAdv's failed because looking at El Toro from a very superficial viewpoint, failing to realize that the experience is vastly different from anything else at GAdv (and vastly different than most rides in the world). As an enthusiast, you should know better than to succumb to GP-like views.

Originally posted by Nitro1118

An amazing ride is an amazing ride, and Toro and Voyage are both. If you prefer the more traditional wooden coaster that samples the best elements from every top 10 wooden coaster, go ride Voyage. If you want insane airtime and itnensity that samples every great Intamin mega coaster while keeping the traditional wooden look and having a few unique elements, go ride Toro.

Yeh I really agree with this too.

Hell, I already said both are great rides. I dont mean to bash Toro, since I agree that it is excellent in it's own right, I just feel that there's no way it rivals Voyage. And yea, DCS, I'm not gonna start arguing with you again. You're obviously not planning on considering other sides of the argument any time soon, so I'll just say I like both rides, but feel Toro is both a letdon and a much weaker ride overall compared to Voyage.

How can you "feel" it's a weaker ride until you've experienced the feeling for yourself?

Thank you schulzy3000.

I haven't said anything negative about Voyage considering I haven't ridden. I'm merely saying what I've learned *from riding*. Not sure what the other side of the argument is... I have said that Voyage looks awesome, and haven't said anything negative about it, especially something that people who've ridden say aren't true.

I haven't riden both ride, but still I got an opinion.

Bothe rides look awsome. I would love to tide both. El Toro has immense airtime, ande some other stong forces. The Voyage has Tunnels, airtime, twister section.

I like The voyage much mroe than El Toro because I think Voyage feels more like a woodie. El Toro is a awsome ride, but it realy looks like a steel ride. Its hasn't got the cool humps bumbs en turns like The Voyage, its just all smooth track.

Intamin prefab woodies do NOT feel like steelies.

No way. They certainly don't ride like a CCI, no structural shaking, no slamming, no. BUT, they still feel like real wooden coasters IMO. It's not just that great upstop sound dcs mentioned, and the wooden supports; the way the train rides on the track, the whole ride feeling and the atmosphere, is just wooden, even if that's something I can't really explain... Can anybody? On the other hand, is there anybody who's actually ridden one of them and thinks they really feel like steelies on wood supports?

Interesting discussion going on here [approve] BTW, I think a coaster's length has nothing to do with its greatness. Well, unless it's just a free-fall tower like one-trick pony. Short tracks that are well laid out can be just as much fun as 5000+ ft rides. IMHO, a good layout is the most important thing on a coaster anyway...