Jehova Witnesses

Slosprint:

1. But David Blaine, and every other magician for that matter, knows that they are just illusionists. And if people tried to put him to death, would he really be willing to die to keep that lie going? He would know full well that by dying he would gain nothing. So why then did Jesus willfully submit to death, saying "My kingdom is not of this world. If it was, would not my disciples be fighting so that I would not be delivered to the Jews?" They were all willing to die for this. And if they were lying about this willful submission, and really did fight Rome to save Him, people would have known that they were lying when they claimed that he died willingly.

2. Jesus' miracles were much more than what we would call magic tricks (except maybe the 'water into wine' one.) Did David Blaine ever raise the dead? Or restore the sight of the blind? Or get a paralyzed man to walk?

3. Jesus did these healings in peoples' own towns, in their own houses, with their own residents. He went to wherever the sick were. Thus people in the town knew the ones that he healed, and knew that they actually were sick. Contrast this with modern "faith healers" who throw big conventions where thousands of people show up and nobody knows anyone else there, so they can claim to have healed whoever they want with the audience being none the wiser, and in the end they get thousands of dollars in donations. Jesus did it in private, with only a few people watching, for no monetary gain whatsoever, and the whole reason it worked was because those who had been healed later went out to everyone they knew and proclaimed what had happened. You will never find these kinds of personal testimonies from anyone else. And Jesus actually told people "tell no one" after healing them, contrasted with someone after fame who would say "tell the world about me!"

4. No form of magic can make someone who was publicly executed later appear bodily, in the flesh, to over 500 people, still bearing the scars from being executed.

5. The New Testament isn't written in the form of "He did these miracles, therefore He must be God!" It is written like a record of what Jesus said. He is the one who said "I am the truth, and the life, and the way," and "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." And if you actually read what is written in Mark, widely considered the first Gospel written, it spends an enormous amount of time showing that not even the disciples understood fully who He was, and shows Jesus condemning them for unbelief through most of its length. If this was all concocted lie, would not the disciples elevate themselves and say "all who wish to know Me should be like these disciples" rather than writing a whole book where Jesus is condemning them? The Gospels are actually very brutally honest about how people responded to what happened. There are no heavenly choirs singing or baby angels falling out of the sky when Jesus does miracles. People keep asking questions like "Who is this that even the wind and the waves obey Him?" even after seeing Him raise someone from the dead.

6. Are you suggesting that everyone 2000 years ago was a completely gullible idiot that never questioned anything? Because historically, even the most well-educated Platonists who saw right through the inherent flaws in Greek and Roman paganism could find no fault with Christianity.




Adrenaguy:

I am in no way calling y'all "mother****ing liars." You are posting what you believe based on your own personal experience, and I am posting what I believe based on my own personal experience. When did I ever condemn any of you or call you liars? I'm merely trying to post a legitimate defense for faith in God and Jesus. No need for personal attacks.

And by all means, please post "all this evidence" that came out which definitively disproved Jesus.




Coasterkidmwm:

I don't claim to be anything that I am not. Ted Haggard constantly preached against homosexuality, all while he was practicing it himself, thus committing the grave sin of hypocrisy. I don't care. Yes, I do occasionally wonder what it is like to be a woman. So sue me. I've never read a single verse that says being curious and asking "what if?" is a sin. If I preached against it, or if I lied about it, then it would be a sin.

My faith is based on seeking a better life when I was caught up in my own little world and felt like crap, years of amazing answered prayers and personal experience with the Holy Spirit, and Biblical history, not trying to run away from some personal problem that I didn't want to confront.

Originally posted by cjd

^And I find it equally hard to believe that Jesus and all of His disciples somehow staged the whole thing, and were somehow willfully deceiving everyone into believing what they knew to be a lie for what amounted to no personal gain whatsoever, where every single one of them ended up executed. I can understand the distrust of the religions based on one person being 'enlightened' and saying "This is the way. Follow it." But it's a little harder to distrust a religion that was founded based on someone actually claiming to be God, and who actually backed it up with extraordinary miracles and the personal witnesses of hundreds of people.

And it doesn't "make me feel worse about myself." That is pagan thought, which has sadly infested Christianity. (Oh no, my life suddenly sucks. God must be against me! I must pray and give Him a sacrifice so He will like me again!)
1. I don't have to worry about my life all the time.
2. I know exactly how I should be living my life the most fruitfully. Not having to worry about "did I do the right thing?" Is a HUGE burden lifted.
3. I do not worry, saying "What shall I eat?" or "What shall I drink?" or "What shall I wear?" For I know that He knows I need all of these things, and all will be provided.
4. When something is troubling me, I can pray about it and know that it will be taken care of. And actually getting answers to prayer is unbelievable.
5. I don't have to complain "why me?" when things go wrong, because I know everything has a purpose, and that I just need to find it and learn from it.
6. Praying and singing hymns in solitude is by far the most peaceful and uplifting thing that I have ever done.
7. When someone dies, I know that I'm not really saying goodbye. Yes, it still hurts, but there is also hope.

In light of all of that, what are my petty self-loathing moments where I have to admit that I screwed up worth? Nothing. They are but a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes.

All of your points are completely valid... for YOU. Don't try to push it on to other people, if they don't want it. The non existence of God makes a lot more sense than the existence of God. It's called faith, and it's great that you have it, but don't act like everyone else is dumb who doesn't believe.

MY PERSONAL OPINION - I used to be Christian., but after much thought and ovservence, I'm undecided(agnostic). Although I believe something greater than human exists, I don't necessarily believe it's involved with humanity or that it's a conscious existence. Two things are for certain. I PERSONALLY don't believe in the bible or ORGANIZED religion. I'm a spiritual person myself. However, every organized religion has the same principle. It's a security blanket, because a lot of people (not all) can't handle the fact that death may be the end, and that their lives are much more significant than they would like to believe. I don't expect anyone else to support of believe what I believe. I'm merely offering my perspective. Nor do I criticize organized religions. I actually envy the fact that people really believe they have it all figured out.

^I hope my posts don't come off as trying to "push it on other people if they don't want it" or saying "everyone who doesn't believe it is dumb." My posts are supposed to be apologetics, not rebuttals.

After all, it was Jesus that said "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him." Which basically means that it's impossible to convince someone to be a Christian if they aren't open to it.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by cjd
I've never read a single verse that says being curious and asking "what if?" is a sin.

Catholic priests never read a verse that said it wasn't okay to molest 5 year old boys. Same logic as you.

Originally posted by cjd
My faith is based on seeking a better life when I was caught up in my own little world and felt like crap, years of amazing answered prayers and personal experience with the Holy Spirit, and Biblical history, not trying to run away from some personal problem that I didn't want to confront.

Congrats. You've done a great job a picking and choosing what to believe at your convenience.

Asshole.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

Originally posted by cjd
I've never read a single verse that says being curious and asking "what if?" is a sin.

Catholic priests never read a verse that said it wasn't okay to molest 5 year old boys. Same logic as you.
[quote]

In his defense (coming from someone who doesn't believe in organized religion) I believe the media attacked the Catholics. Yes, it was discovered that a few Catholic priests were molesting young boys, but that's because the focus was on them. The media is VERY secular, as everyone knows. Religion alone offends a lot of left wing media organizations. The Catholic religion was attacked, because it symbolizes all that is organized religion, with it's mass of followers. I personally don't believe the ratio of child molesting leaders is any higher in the Catholic religion than it is any other religion or organization period. I really think it's a shame that a few bad examples tarnished the entire religion in an unfair way.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

Catholic priests never read a verse that said it wasn't okay to molest 5 year old boys. Same logic as you.

Aside from "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind," "And whoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea," and "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body."

[slosprint]

This is love retarded... CJD, you used so many logical fallacies in your reply to me that it would take an 1000 page book to address them all, and even then you wouldn't pay any attention to it because the book isn't 2000 years old and from unknown origins. If you would like however, I would focus on some of the main points of yours and how stupid they are, or if you would rather not know how completely dumb you sounded in that response I would be quite happy to oblige and save myself an hour.

lol, I was afraid that I would feel weird after being gone for 2 years, but now I feel like I'm right back home again. Coasterkid and CJD, still arguing about religion with each-other. Some things never change, do they? Now we just need TConwell...

Originally posted by cjd

Adrenaguy:

I am in no way calling y'all "mother****ing liars." You are posting what you believe based on your own personal experience, and I am posting what I believe based on my own personal experience. When did I ever condemn any of you or call you liars? I'm merely trying to post a legitimate defense for faith in God and Jesus. No need for personal attacks.

And by all means, please post "all this evidence" that came out which definitively disproved Jesus.

edit:
I make a damn good point.
That was just to be arrogant.
Peace <3

ak. -rubs forehead-
i don't think that you're getting my point, my point is that you are this child that without any evidence FOR you point, you are wildly lashing out and defending, yet you have brought no evidence to the table yourself. my "y'all be motherf**kin' liars" quote was from insane clown posse, might have heard of them? they admitted their christianity after years of outrageous rap lyrics etc, all for the cause of people turning to god. they said that. but i digress.

my point is that in your unedited comment you talked about "my evidence for disproving jesus" no. i did not say jesus didn't exist, he could very well have existed. and although there are plenty of sources to show his existance (which i'm quite sure you'll kindly present, please) my oint is that religion can be likened to an immature state, that of which in terms of a baby, when something that opposes their will comes along thy might scream and shout and b**ch until they get ther way. or that of a child, who makes up bull, later disproved and disbelieved by a number of people and pretends that THEY are the ones who fail to see the truth.

i find myself solidly atheist, as it is people like you who present the face of christianity, an ill conceived bed time story that is to be literally defended aggressively until death. back in my more care-free days, i found religion to be frivolous and without meaning. now i find it not only moreso exactly that, but also intolerant and restricting. your best defense against doubters is not that of an attack, but to simply remain calm and let them believe. if you truly want followers, make it seem as though you are tolerant. buddism draws me with great strength, because it offers peace in an otherwise world full of absolute d**kwads. much like your good self.

in conclusion; you suck. the more aggressively you defend religion, the more likely you are to push yourself away and widen the gap that you must leap to bring "non-believers" to your flock.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by cjd

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

Catholic priests never read a verse that said it wasn't okay to molest 5 year old boys. Same logic as you.

Aside from "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind," "And whoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea," and "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body."

Your interpretation is different than their interpretation.

That is why it's so easy to use the Bible as a hate tool. Learning is fun, YAY!

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

Learning is fun, YAY!

it's good to learn!

BECAUSE KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!

but... if knowledge is power... and... power leads to corruption... and corruption is bad... that makes learning bad?
OH GOD MY EDUCATED BRAIN IS FULL OF EEEEEEVIL!
well. that's what the religious folks would have me think...

Slosprint:

And your initial comment that compared Jesus to David Blaine wasn't a logical fallacy, then? Almost the whole point of my post was to show that Jesus couldn't be compared to him.



Adrenaguy:

No, I was not aware of that group.

And back on the topic, I think you're forgetting how this whole thing started. It went something like this:

Slosprint: Religion is a bunch of people feeling more important than they actually are.
CJD: I hate it when people say things like that, because the whole point of our religion is to be meek and humble and have un-natural love. Clearly we aren't doing our job.
Slosprint: (question) You are supposed to be humble. Why would you believe something with no evidence that makes you feel worse about yourself?
CJD: (answer) This is why I think there is in fact reason to believe, and no, my religion does not make me feel worse about myself.
Slosprint: (mocks any belief in the supernatural, and then answers my points by comparing Jesus to David Blaine.)
Coasterkidmwm: accuses me of being in denial
You: compares me to a whining kid.
Me: responds to all of these accusations.
etc, etc, etc.

Slosprint made a negative comment about religion, I posted that I wish we were living up to our Biblical duties so people wouldn't think so negatively about us, he responded with a question, and ever since then it has been nothing but a bunch of answering to rebuttals.

I think it is a little hypocrytical for you to call me intolerant and restricting, when you are the one who called my beliefs childish and immature and a "bedtime story," and calling me a d***wad wile saying "you suck." Unless I am missing something, I never did anything like that. I merely answered Slosprint's questions and then responded to people's accusations.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Well you dream about being a preggers woman and apparently that is okay but some other stuff along the exact same venue you believe isn't?

That makes you an asshole. Sorry.

Ever given money to any organization named "The Family" or "Fellowship"?

Originally posted by cjd

Adrenaguy:

No, I was not aware of that group.

And back on the topic, I think you're forgetting how this whole thing started. It went something like this:

-speil about the conversation-

I think it is a little hypocrytical for you to call me intolerant and restricting, when you are the one who called my beliefs childish and immature and a "bedtime story," and calling me a d***wad wile saying "you suck." Unless I am missing something, I never did anything like that. I merely answered Slosprint's questions and then responded to people's accusations.

now see i didn't ask how it started, did i? why did we need that recap? fail.

your comment about my hypocrisy makes no sense, me calling the religion intolerant and restricting has nothing to do with "bedtime stories" yes, it likens your belief system to childish tales, but it in no way restricts you. nor does it exactly tell you to be like me or f**k off. i.e. intolerance.
and the personal attack? yeah i wasn't being personal before, but you're being an a*s hat. so i felt like being personal. you're an a*s hat. and what was that about "i never did anything like that" i accuses you of nothing but mental retardation, how do personal insults such as "you suck" and "d**kwad" insinuate an act of which you or i might disapprove other than "you suck" means that you suck penis, but it is rarely used in that sense, merely as a light insult to insult you as a person. oh dears.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

Well you dream about being a preggers woman and apparently that is okay but some other stuff along the exact same venue you believe isn't?

Show me one verse where it says that being curious about the opposite gender is wrong, and I'll gladly admit that I was wrong. So far, I have read verses against cross-dressing, homosexuality, lust, and actually planning to do any of these things, but never have I seen anything against having a dream which I have no intentions of carrying out.

-comes out from hiding- is he gone?

*sigh...* nothing has changed here indeed. People argue with each-other, nobody even considers that their opinion might be wrong, and ten pages of "grr" fighting ensues.

At this point, can't you guys just admit that nobody will change their mind and move on?

Nearly every atheist is agnostic - not towards the existence of a god but towards the origins of the universe; the very things that fields like quantum physics are trying to figure out and have made great strides towards. (Just as those before them discovered that the earth was round instead of flat.) The general usage of the term "agnostic" seems to imply agnosticism specifically towards monotheism or deism of any kind. The problem is what people have repeated millions of times: lack of evidence. To say there is a god of any kind is a claim, and one that needs support to be believed. Thus if one is to be agnostic towards the existence of a god, or "God", there's no reason to also be agnostic towards the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn who can only be seen by those who genuinely believe.

My own experiences with Christianity were slightly in the opposite direction of cjd's experiences, more or less. After learning quite a bit from personal experience, the logical aspect of it fell in place nicely.

I'd have to say myself that most of the Christians that I actually know are also not the stereotypical condemning full-of-hypocrisy kind. That doesn't affect my dislike of the faith itself, but in the end, I think we should all be careful to be percise in who or what we insult; the faith and its hypocritical followers, and leave alone those who leave others alone. Many Christians don't apply the belief system's method of thinking towards everyday issues and it's a bit unfair to assume that they all do.

Lets flip the coin around a bit. Many places around the U.S., especially the bible belt, are ridiculously religious and treat non-believers as if we had horns growing out of our heads. The non-believers are a minority and get poop for their lack of a religious belief system, just as believer/religious minorities here get the same for their beliefs. It doesn't matter if people believe that Santa Claus exists, that someone died and resurrected in 3 days, or that MF is better than SROS/Bizzaro; we should all be above insulting them randomly. (Of course, this still leaves their beliefs open to scrutiny and insult. =)

[slosprint]

Originally posted by Mai of the Fire

*sigh...* nothing has changed here indeed. People argue with each-other, nobody even considers that their opinion might be wrong, and ten pages of "grr" fighting ensues.

At this point, can't you guys just admit that nobody will change their mind and move on?

I will change my mind when presented with evidence. Until then I will continue to think that religious people are love.

Who gives a love?

So much anger... blegh... [xx(] Talking about my personal beliefs with others depresses me, because the subject is so touchy. I'm staying out of this.

^(2) Apparently everyone who's atheist on this site...

[Coasterkidmwm]

Sorry I don't like people trying to push the hateful Christian agenda on me.

[slosprint]

Originally posted by Tidus

^(2) Apparently everyone who's atheist on this site...

Probably a bunch of silent atheists on here... Just to clarify to everyone there is no real connection between atheists other than lack of belief in a god. It does not tell you anything else about the person's ideals, beliefs, or lack thereof other than that one factor.

Originally posted by Tidus

^ No Christians were pushing their ideals on you, especially cjd...I read the entire post (regrettably) and the only people pushing ideas are YOU GUYS.

So unless you want Christians to actually start pushing the Christian agenda on you, turning this into a 20 page flameball article, just STFU about it already!

You're not helping...