Is it Christmas!?

I have said all I need to say and going round and round on this board is not only pointless, but the first sign of immaturity as far as spiritual growth is concerned. You have the facts man, do with them what you will.

You have been told the truth, you considered it an "opinion", and I told you one day you will know which is correct and wished you luck. It is obvious you want to continue on seeking to twist facts to match your own understandings, and that is not the sign of one seeking to learn, but one who wants to merely prove themselves right. Again, you have the facts, what you choose to do with them is up to you.

[gouldy]

ok, honestly, I think you're just trying to sound intelligent.

Something I want to say though, you said "You have been told the truth, you considered it an "opinion""

ok, I don't think thats right at all, I don't think I have been told the truth, personally, I doubt very much that anyone knows what the truth is. Religon cannot prove how existance began, how it is sustained, why it is sustained, or indeed what life is. But Science cannot prove any of these things either, so obviously there is no 'truth' to speak of.

Neither was I arguing that I was right, I was merely arguing that you were wrong, I cannot say I am right, neither can you. If anybody truly believes they are right about anything then they are mistaken. I doubt the possibility of our brains having the capacity to realise the 'truth'.

All I know is that, as humans, we're here on the planet, I honestly don't care how or why, I just want to enjoy. But one problem is, I can't because I am thworted at every turn by people saying that things I do are wrong because religon says so or whatever, but for all we know everything (including what science tells us) is fictional, so why believe anything? Why not just do what we've been put here to do, which quite obviously, is just to make more life .... pointless, but there you go.

Let me attempt to stab at your last paragraph. The rest of it is unsubstantiated opinion.

Take religion out of the picture for a second. We have laws to live by that govern what you can and cannot do ... if this is a problem for you then you must argue with the authors (this would be courts, politicians, etc.), not other folks in the same situation as you.

Now, apply religion back into it (this brings in morals, values, etc.) ... again, to not agree would mean you have to argue with the author of the bible (that would be God for those playing along at home), not others in the same situation as you (like me).

As far as the "how will we know" portion of your statements: I just know. I take it on faith. If I said to you, "The universe is huge", you would probably respond with, "I know".

Now, if I were to ask you, "How do you know the universe is huge", how could you honestly reply? Could you yourself prove it? No, this would be a fact gained from teachings, readings, television, scientists, etc., but not something you could show me that would be tangible.

This is the same application of my relationship with Jesus Christ. I know who He is, I know what He has done for me, and all I can offer you is those facts. I take His place in my life on faith based on what He has done for me, and to the best of my knowledge no one can argue with those facts as it is my testimony, it happened to me, so to me it is real.

For example, several years ago I had a very serious problem with internet pornography. However, after being shown His grace and allowing Him to heal me and change my heart and what I chose to put in front of my eyes, those things are no longer an issue in my life. This is what I mean when I say it is my testimony, and all I can offer you is what I know as truth - and without His guidance and as master of my life I am merely floundering around like a fish out of water.

[gouldy]

I wouldn't say the universe is huge actually, because I don't know, which is what I said before, I actually never accept anything as truth. I would have said the universe is infinitely large, meaning it could be tiny, yet it could be massive, I don't know and I will not be told. I challenge everything that I am told and believe nothing in particular. I would suggest to everyone to challenge what they are told whether it be about the existance of life, or about the amount of cheese in your fridge. You will have only found the truth when deep down in all honestly, you cannot challenge what you have been told in anyway shape or form.

Basically I am sort of agreeing with what you have said there, BUT, you say this about not knowing anything is true, but you still side with one side of the arguement if you see what I mean. If I don't know something is true for sure, then I don't believe it. I don't believe what science tells me anymore than I believe what religion tells me because I can challenge them both without reply.

Anyway, to begin with, I was not questioning the morals behind religion, as you said, religion has helped you to overcome your own problems. What I was questioning, is the supposed truth religion poses about the begining of existance, the existance of a being known as God and also the being known as Jesus. As I've said before, the way I see it, neither of them exists or existed, because I can challenge the truth of their existance. Religion tells us to be good to our fellow man, I most definitely do not have any problem with that, what I have a problem with is people telling me that I have to be good to my fellow man because their imaginary friend told them.

Wow, this is a real Amiricam topic: about the political coreectness of chrismas. I don't follow any religion. but I still celebrate christmas

Woah...a debate which im not part of, we'll soon fix this

My TConwell you stated that the bible tells the truth (or something) so how come Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all have accounts of Jesus's birth, yet neither of them is the same? The simple answer is that the bible was written by people how had no eye witnessed the accounts of Jesus, so how do they know that anyof its truth. The bible is exactly the same as folk stories, overtime they get change. People put things in the story how they would personaly of liked to have seen them, despite the actual truth behind. I was actualy watching a documentry about this last night called 'Who Wrote the Bible' at the end the devoted Christian even agreed that the bible is about 90% lies and half truths, now how could you base your religion on something like that. Personaly i dont beleive a single word of the Bible, espiecaly 'Genesis' I simply refuse to believe that God appeared and decided he would create everything. Another point i would like to bring up is why hasn't God or any Angels revisted the Earth in over 200 years? With a good witness, actualy it seems like pretty much all of the events in the bible happen without a witness...Moses walking in the Desert and a bush catches fire..any witness's, nope. Iwould need some photographic proof, or some video footage.

My final point:

several years ago I had a very serious problem with internet pornography.

Same here, wasnt getting enough of it!

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But I do know alot about the Jewish faith and knowing that they dont believe Jesus was also God, then my God isnt the same as theirs. God also used Jesus to bring Him closer to me, not farther away. The Jewish seem to hold God away at arms length, like hes too Holy to know personally. Hence why real Jews dont ever say or write out God. They will write it G-d because they believe even the name is too holy. While thats a good thing, knowing how holy He is, the difference is that they dont accept Jesus as their God who came to sever those very bonds and traditions and ultimatly, to make it a one on one relationship free of many of the rules and standards that were set in the pre-Jesus time.


Oddly enough though, its written that the Jews will come back and will propser again. But that totally follows history. Countless times they faded from God only to come back again. They had a chance with Jesus but chose to overlook the personal power that God gave them and instead believe that God will send their messiah in the form of a military power, someone strong who will free their nation. Sadly, Jesus was that man for those people. But, like they did the past, they will at some point realize and get back what God wanted to give them. Just more examples of the forgiveness. Because really, if they can backslide as many times as they have and still be forgiven, I dont think anyone on earth can come close to them :-p

Real, it might be a good idea to go back and check your facts a little bit. First, there are three different types of Judaism. There are Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews. I personally know a family that is Orthodox and they do not think God's name is too holy to say. Many of the Jewish prayers have the word "Adonai" which is Hebrew for God.

And if you don't remember correctly Jesus was born to Jewish parents and grew up with Judaism as his religion. To me you seem very closed minded and that is what I see with a lot of people. And can you clarify the phrase "faded from God"?

Any religion is just mythology. It's the same thing as the what the Romans or Greeks did. There are stories which emphasize how you are supposed to act and are believed as true by the followers of that mythology.

If you would like to talk about this stuff more in depth, you can reach me on AIM. PM if you wish to do so.

[hyyyper]

i'm not christian, i might be 'held under water', called 'doping' here and the thing you so 4 years after, but i do not believe in "the old man on the cloud" and the sheepherder that's supposed to be his son,

but i do think you should say merry x-mas, because it's x-mas and everyone on the globe knows it when you say it's x-mas,
here in holland, even the jews and muslims are celebrating x-mas

so lemme be one of the first to say

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR WITH GREAT AIRTIME AND SHORT LINES

[gouldy]

Yay, lets all bash organised religion again! [:D]

Okay okay okay.

Firstly to my british friends [:)] Dont try and argue with an american about religion, especially Christianity. Most of america is Christian, and americans will NOT back down when their religions are challenged. 100 and a bit years ago, they even nearly wiped out the total Indian population because their religion was different, and the "white americans" (who are actually european and are probably related to us in some way shape or form) wanted to fulfill manifest destiny, where their religion would be spread across the whole of the continent, and no one would argue with what they are say. Im not saying TJ wants to kill us all for disagreeing, lol, but im just saying they wont back down when religion is questioned, because of what has happened in the past.

Anyway, im in a tricky situation, im supposed to be christian, yet i dont go to church or anything like that, and i dont agree with alot of the stuff explored in christianity. I am the type of person who is much more likely to believe science, its alot more interesting to me, and makes so much more sense. For example, i dont believe god made humans exactly as they are, i believe in evolution, straight off. BUT i do think there is an element of truth in religion, some things do make sense to me. Im actually going to say the closest ive gotten to believing both at the same time is when i read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown. It kind of explains how i feel about science and religion, they both should go hand in hand, yet they are so different. Science can be used to prove religion wrong in some respects, but is there a chance that one day science may help to prove a certain aspect of religion? Im not saying we are going to invent a telescope that makes us see heaven and all these people floating around, and a man sat on a cloud ruling over us all. I dont actually know what im saying, so you could say i am confused about religion, and whether i really believe it or not. I seem to believe rules from all different religions, but maybe thats just morals? I dont have a clue. But i have an open mind. Im willing for religion to be proved wrong or right to me. The only religion i do cast a side as totally wrong is mormonism, because it just seems stupid that Christ managed to travel to America when they didnt even know it existed. But then they would answer back with, but Godmade the world he knew everything existed. I also dont like the idea that only one man was allowed to ee their holy book, before burying it. But again, i think its down to the person what they believe, fair enough if gouldy wants to say religion is a load of crap basically, thats fine by me, and fair enough if TJ wants to say religion exists, totally.

[gouldy]

Yeah, jpe is right ....... I do think religion is a load of crap!

It's not actually all that much the religion that pisses me off anymore, it's the people who go around preaching it, doing stuff like putting quotes from the bible onto an internet forum, naming no names at all

Yeah anyway, not wanting to break down into argument again (well actually I do, but the rest of you probably don't), I'm just going to say, merry Christmas.

I do actually. I love internet arguments. I keep wanting to cause loads on Coasterforce about stealth just because i dont like some of the people there! I keep saying things that i dont even agree ith just to piss people off. lol. I need help! BTW dude, i forgot to say you can have a spiffing christmas on msn. So there ya go, you can have a spiffing christmas

merry chrismukkah

Originally posted by Edge

Woah...a debate which im not part of, we'll soon fix this

My TConwell you stated that the bible tells the truth (or something) so how come Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all have accounts of Jesus's birth, yet neither of them is the same? The simple answer is that the bible was written by people how had no eye witnessed the accounts of Jesus, so how do they know that anyof its truth.

Actually, I just studied this.

First, Matthew was a Jew. He wrote his account of the Nativity based from a Jewish perspective. If you study (which Im sure you havent) his account he uses one phrase almost incessivly..."to fulfill". He goes through Jesus's life explaining how he fulfilled propehecy after prophecy because he knew thats the only way that the Jews would believe Him for who He was. Matthew uses it like, 10 times or more.

Another difference you may find is the Geneology. Matthew differs from say, Luke, because again, Matthew was a Jew and Luke was not. Matthew knew linked Jesus' geneology back through a history of Kings. Why? Well, that was VERY important to the Jews. To show that He was coming from a line of kings, most very important in their history, shows that He too was to be a King. All of this was to point to the Jewish side of things.


However, Lukes account is more based on the gentile way of things. He traces His geneology back through commoners to show that Jesus while He was a king, was also just a commoner. He was a regular person like everyone else. Luke also spent more time focusing on Mary than Matthew did because Matthew focused more on Joseph. Luke did this because Mary had more importance to the gentiles because of her commoner ties.

Also, this is speculation, but Luke possibly could have interviewed Mary and gotten a first hand report on Jesus and His life. Why else would Luke have included the section about Marys sister Elizabeth and Matthew not? The story of Elizabeth shows a miracle birth, just as Jesus's was and again, this shows a huge importance on who Jesus was to be. But back to this speculation.

Luke traveled with Paul on his long and arduous travels. Paul was throw into jail about several times and one of those times was about 10-20 years after Jesus's death. (keep in mind that Luke wrote his book in about A.D. 59) Luke was not throw in jail and its not realistic to think that he just waited around outside the jail. He obviously had to have traveled around and did more ministering but its also realistic to say that since where they were was only 7 miles from Bethlehem (where Mary and Joeseph lived) that he went to visit her and get her account of Jesus and how everything happened. Luke goes into GREAT detail in his book and its partly because of his background as a doctor but also because he went to great lengths to get those details. Its very possible that he interviewed Mary during one of Pauls stays in jail and got the facts on what happened.


The main reason I am getting to is that both stories END the same. An analogy would be this. A buddy of mine has started a coffee shop in a town near me. If he told me the story frmo beginning to end he would probably tell me of how God paved the way for him and the struggles and hardships he endured to get where he is now - a prospering coffee shop. It would end with that note.

However, if he goes to his Financial advisor and tells him the same story, hes going to tell it in "I made this decision, it turned out good." or "I made this decision and it turned out to be a good one because I made this much money" etc. See, just because they dont see eye to eye doesnt mean they are different OR conflicting. Remember, Matthew and Luke wrote their books for different audiences from different backgrounds but for the same purpose. That is why there are some serious differences.


Plus you guys have to remember, the Bible is a story. Its not, to me anyways, a historical document. Its not some textbook but rather a book of narratives (makes up 80% of bible) and rules and commandments (makes up the other 20%). This is what makes it so beautiful. Remember, when these books were written in the bible they werent in the form we see today. They were individual books. The Gentiles would have gotten Lukes while the Jews would have gotten Matthews. Its not like they got the bible all nice and bound together like we see today. Infact, much of the bible still had to be written. Plus there are still documents out there that arent part of the bible but were writtenn in the same time and about the same events.

lol urgh! That was so last year! I cant read all of your post Real. I am just going to say i am wrong in every single way and you pwn me!

LOL Curse my fast typing.

I didnt think it was that fast, LOL. Only reason I responded was because a couple of the issues talked about last year I just studied over the last month and picked up some interesting tid-bits along the way.