Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

Originally posted by Iron Man

Originally posted by TConwell

At any rate, one day everything will be answered. And, if at the end of my life I discover I spent my life living for someone that does not exist -- I will have lost nothing except my time; which was spent in joyful celebration. However, for someone else to die and find out that Christians were right, they would lose everything, to include their very soul. It is a choice ...

Why do you say that TJ?
Because I don't have the same beleifs as you, does that mean I will be treated differently if we are both wrong? You, being accepted, but me, I get to lose my soul? Hardly seems fair..

Of course it's fair. When all of us die, those of us who do not share Christian beliefs will spend eternity in a Hell of suffering. Christianity is a very loving and tolerant religion.

I'm just tired of science trying to prove everything wrong and stuff. Just let people believe in what they want to believe in, even if you prove something wrong that is religous, religous people aren't going to believe you or aren't going to care. It seems that all this science upon religion is just to tell people who aren't religous, that so and so didn't exist, and so and so didn't happen. I don't know, just my opinion.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by Carlosio
Firstly, i should say i feel that it's rediculous for a man to try and disprove Jesus (who, by the way, has in his favour more proof of existence than Julius Caesar).

Such as?

thats my question wheres the proof to prove their theories...

Originally posted by IntaminFan397

Originally posted by Iron Man

Originally posted by TConwell

At any rate, one day everything will be answered. And, if at the end of my life I discover I spent my life living for someone that does not exist -- I will have lost nothing except my time; which was spent in joyful celebration. However, for someone else to die and find out that Christians were right, they would lose everything, to include their very soul. It is a choice ...

Why do you say that TJ?
Because I don't have the same beleifs as you, does that mean I will be treated differently if we are both wrong? You, being accepted, but me, I get to lose my soul? Hardly seems fair..

Of course it's fair. When all of us die, those of us who do not share Christian beliefs will spend eternity in a Hell of suffering. Christianity is a very loving and tolerant religion.

First off, I didn't ask you to clarify. TJ made the comment and he is more than capable of backing himself up. And since when do you back up Christian beleifs?

Second, it's not fair at all. What I perceive from that statement is that if both I and another Christian are wrong, I am going to suffer for that. And like I have said before, I reserve my beleifs by keeping a very open mind about everything. I explored everything from Christianity to Paganism. If and when the end comes, I will submit to whoever is right.

Of course it isn't fair, I was being sarcastic.

is it just me or does it seem like this topic is starting to be one big arguement of religions...

[coolbeans326]

If and when the end comes, I will submit to whoever is right.

Maybe God has an place in heaven for people like you are aren't 100% sure aboute which religion is right, but will believe once the time comes, and the correct truth is revealed. I can only pray and hope though. And if not, I sure hope my religion is correct, and if not, my second pick would be athiesm's beliefs were correct as I would not want to be rotting in hell for all eternity.
Anyways here's my idea of what the after will be.
You will die and you will be nothing till the return of Christ. Meaning you'll just be sitting in the ground with a mindset of how it was before you were born. Now since there really is no time frame before, or after death (kind of like numbers 0 is really the start and there is an infinate amount of numbers before and after) it could seem like a second between your death and your rebirth, and/or eternal damnation(which is how I argue against those who say you'll go to heaven and then you'll be casted back down to earth when the time comes) Now this sounds great and all as we'll probably be dumbed down once again so we don't think about living for eternity and have it hurt our brains like we would right now if we were to think about it. We'd probably be living in the moment, pure, and constantly be having fun, and its all play and no work (as work would probably be play)
But I couldn't say the same for the other half, as they'll probably have the same knowledge, and realize that they will be in eternal misery, and that will only add to the punishment.
And thats my theory, don't think on it to hard or it will hurt, and possibly make you want to cry.

Originally posted by WeeWeeSlap

Originally posted by Jimmy Yoshi

I've always wondered, what if there is no God, Jesus, or Heaven, then where would our souls end up when we die. Would we reincarnate into something else, or just...

The soul will die along with the body, that's all. Nothing complicated.

This is probably the answer I would have given as well. But of course, you would have spent your life "wasting time" (to use a phrase loosely) devoted to something positive that gave you meaning to live for ... can't be a bad way to spend time in my book.

Originally posted by IntaminFan397

Of course it isn't fair, I was being sarcastic.

Of course this is his answer and I don't think he was speaking for me man ... he simply got owned a few pages back and now he is trying to save face. No worries Iron -- let it go.

It does get quite crappy when you get to have birthday partys or celebrate any holidays.... Shoot, I think I got involved.

Originally posted by Iron ManIf and when the end comes, I will submit to whoever is right.

You wont have time then. It will be too late.

Coolbeans- Thats a very, very well thought out theory. Infact, one I am going to look into a bit but, I have to ask myself. What does it matter? Does it matter to me now, what happens to me then? I explain below why that answer is know. Its an intriguing thought you put out there, one worthy of thinking about but not too much. Its things of that nature where the human brain cant STAND not to have an answer yet I think the real key gets unlocked when we acknowledge that its beyond our comprehension and that we need not worry about those things. He created the beginning and Hes already told the end. We need not worry about that and only worry about the now.

The statement by IF, I really dont know what to make of it. Where does fair come into play?

When is life fair? Is life fair is a better question. Is it?


In todays world, nearly everyone has the same opportunity now to explore beliefs and what you choose, is what you choose. For you, say in the end, to be upset that I chose the ride path and you didnt is purely self centered. I am willing to talk to anyone on the subject of God. Living for God is about the now.

Its not about the end result. I dont live the life of a Christian because I want to go to heaven. What kind of existance is that? Its empty and its fruitless. Its also BORING. All I would do is sit around and wait till I die or the end comes. Thats not how He intended us to live and thats not the way He wanted us to serve.


See, most of you are only talking about heaven and hell - which do exist but they should NEVER be ones motivation. If you become a christian with the idea of "I need to do this so I dont go to hell" thats not right. You missed the point. Same as if you say "I need to do this so I can go to heaven".

The life is self-sacrificing. The life is love. The life is NOW. Its not yesterday and its not tomorrow. I may not wake up from my sleep tonight. What good would the things I planned to do tomorrow be if I dont do them today?

A great quote is "Dont plan for tomorrow what you can do today."


Thats a major part of christianity. Living for the now and living to love people. Its not real complicated but the human mind, if you dont control it, makes it uber complicated. This is usually when people who were christians get very confused and start to question God, faith and the way of life all-together and thats usually because they either didnt have someone mentoring them and/or didnt have a church or group there to lift them up and keep them accountable and cared for.



The life of a christian was NOT meant to be taken solo. It was meant to be lived out in community. If any of you tried Christianity but tried to do it solo, on your own, I encourage you to think about trying it with a new heart and with the mindset that you cant do it alone. That you need help and that you need to be a part of a community.


The world keeps looking at it frmo the angle of "What do I need to do to attain eternal life?" instead of "How can I serve you God?" One angle is selfish, the other is self-less. The first angle reflects a human desire and need while the other puts my own desires aside. This is where christianity differs from all other major religions.


Back on topic:
To even LOOK at christianity (or any religion) from the perspective of if its fair is proposterous. It usually proves that the person looking at it from that angle doesnt really know what christianity is about and probably wasnt shown by a real christian but probably rather from a poser - someone no more a "christian" than a non-believer.

[jayman]

ha.. what a joke.. if this guy doesn't believe in jesus then why the hell is he spending so much time disproving his existence? besides no one can "prove" or "disprove" that christ was the son of god, which i'm pretty sure the debate should be, if there's gonna be one. ... to waste one's time, one way or the other would be (1) idiotic for the non-believer, because he's focusing on something he doesn't believe is real (2) counter productive for the faithful, because trying to "prove" the deity and exsitence of christ would lead nowhere and would take up the time that could be used to convince people to have faith as well as detract from the fruitful life he believes god intended for him/her...
i personally agree that many horrible and backasswards things have been done in the name of christianity, as they have with any religion and /or philosophy. right now christianity is the focus of many peoples attention when it comes to this... and perhaps rightfuly so, but the people who get all the attention(and hold power right now unfortunately) are not in my estimation good examples of "christian" christians, and have even convinced many real christians to follow them ....blindly...BUT to suggest that these very bad examples of christians represent the whole religion (yes, religion, sorry but i speak from a LOT of experience when i describe fundalmentalist christianity as a religion)is not cool.
as with many religions, including islam and the phiolosophies of bhuddism and tao, the common philosophy , the very root , of these religions is pure good... unfortunately it's human nature to use these philosophies to gain control over people, i believe that this happened as soon the concept of heaven and hell and/or reincarnation were introduced to those of them that incorporate them. (ps... it says.. "i believe" which means i can't PROVE it)
when threatened with these , espescialy early on in human intellectual development, people could be convinced to do what ever they wanted them to.

i like what real said, and i've heard other christians say it too, that hope of heaven and fear of hell are not what motivate him to live his life the way he has chosen, but a good close relationship to what he believes god is...
i believe jesus did exsist, there is more than just the bible to back this up, but wether or not he was the son of god, or performed the acts thaty he is reported to do in the gospels is not something i believe is likely, at least not the way the bible tells it(just like george washington and the cherry tree), but i wouldn't spend one red cent or a fraction of my time focusing too hard on "PROVING" that it's not true... unless of course it was to build a time machine so i could go back and see what really happened... and then i could hit all the great coasters on the way!!!!!!

Originally posted by IntaminFan397

Yeah, it is stupid. But Christians suck anyway.

[stoning]

Originally posted by IntaminFan397

Of course it's fair. When all of us die, those of us who do not share Christian beliefs will spend eternity in a Hell of suffering. Christianity is a very loving and tolerant religion.

Its plenty fair as you have a choice right now.

Tony, I hope you'll find later in life that you're board with all the pleasures you have right now that God couldn't give you. They only last so long but Christianity(or any spirituality for that matter) is eternal and with it you always have something to keep going with. I ask you to name a couple things that you could stick with and rely on as long as you ever live. I can't help but feel you were giving up too quickly when you decided turn to atheism. Had you ever given God a chance?

For those of you who have no idea why I'm trying to be pretty deep with him, don't try to find out.

I thought you should get involved in this topic pat.

[Oscar]

Originally posted by TConwell

Originally posted by WeeWeeSlap

Originally posted by Jimmy Yoshi

I've always wondered, what if there is no God, Jesus, or Heaven, then where would our souls end up when we die. Would we reincarnate into something else, or just...

The soul will die along with the body, that's all. Nothing complicated.

This is probably the answer I would have given as well. But of course, you would have spent your life "wasting time" (to use a phrase loosely) devoted to something positive that gave you meaning to live for ... can't be a bad way to spend time in my book.

I dunno, if you live believing something that does not exist, then your life was not wasted because you did something you enjoyed and felt good about doing. Anytime that you spend time doing something you enjoy or believe in it is never time wasted. Time wasted is criminal acts and shitholes like that, imo.

Smer, I know where you are going ... nicely probed. Take care that it does not set him on the defensive otherwise ... well ... we know where it will go.

Real, well, that was a bit of a dissertation but excellently worded. Hopefully since it was worded as "your view", what you were driving at was not lost in translation due to confusion of the real meaning (1 Corinthians 1:18).

coolbeans, that is an interesting theory! Yet, two years of seminary, five years of preaching, 12 years of walking with the Lord, and 8 months of being a Senior Pastor later and I have not been able to find proof of that theory, but an interesting theory nevertheless.

WWS, that is the exact opposite of the example I gave, so I guess we are on the same sheet of music.

^ LOL @ "The Rev"

Yea, thats where the real meaning comes from. I believe theres another passage as well that talks about that but the main concept I hope is still there.


Im still working on the delivery for my thoughts. Ill get there one day

[hyyyper]

OMG 7 pages already, better start reading

Originally posted by Real

^ LOL @ "The Rev"

I cannot believe you are the only one who has caught that.
Delivery is fine brother, I just worry about others not getting it.

[gouldy]

Originally posted by TConwell


First you begin with:

Originally posted by gouldy

Firstly, I wasn't personally attacking anyone

Then you finish with:

Originally posted by gouldy

Might I add, the way some of you talk is extremely condescending. Although it might just be me who feels that way ... no, actually some of you are just being ponces.

Yeah, you're right ... you are being perfectly clear and there is no way to confuse what you are saying.

ejit. I said "I wasn't" personally attacking anyone, at no point did I say that I wasn't GOING to do it I meant, in the post you were refering to, doesn't stop me from doing it in the future [:)]

Actually, thinking about it now, if I had the money, I would do the same thing this guy has, obviously I wouldn't be able to disprove his existance or anything, I would just do it for a laugh if I had the money, as I suspect this guy has to be honest. It's got us lot arguing and it's probably got a lot of other people arguing especially among religious groups, so if I had the money I'd bloody do it aswell, because arguing is hilarious to be a part of and to watch [:D] Especially when it's with religious people, because they're THE most amuzing to listen to it is just hilarious.

Gouldy, ummmmmmm .... ok?

Especially when it's with religious people, because they're THE most amuzing to listen to it is just hilarious.

LOL, Amen brother!

TJ. You have still yet to answer my question.

Thanks TC, nice to know i'm wanted hehe

Coasterkid - Just look around. It's interesting really that people accept something that they are taught outright, but not those things that they are given a choice. Jesus is no more fictional than Caeser, the question is about his miracle powers and significance. There is documentation everywhere, from the gospels themselves (yes, they are as valid as any other historical record) to census's (?) etc.

Guitarplayer - "What do you consider religion as then?"

Fair point, i guess, but only from he perspective of an atheist. If you believe in christianity, or islam, hinduism, judaism or any other religeon, you don't believe that it is a man made creation. In the past i did believe that such things were manufactured as a sort of balancing act. Just something to give meaning to life. But surely, as a believer, you are bound to believe that religeon was created and spread by God. That's the whole point. Religeon was not created by man, and i say that wholey certain in the fact because i believe in the creator.

Therefore, for me, science is a totally different affair. I know many religeous scientists.

Sorry it took so long to reply, i haven't had chance to come on for a while. This is the best topic we've had for a while.

^ I'm completely agree with you. I also wanted to ask those who are atheist or who don't believe in a God or a religion, why? I just want to hear how you think man was created? Someone had to have done it, a higher power at least, maybe not a God to you but at least some kind of power greater than all man. Doesn't it just kinda make sense that there is a god or something out there, seriously how was man, and the world created? Sorry if anyone feels as though I'm trying to convert you, I'm just wanting an explanation for atheism and such.