Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

So what this topic is coming to is, We Sacrifice Hyyyper and get him to report back if thier is a god or not. If there is a god, then well...thats a shock, but if there isnt...at least we got rid of hyyyper

NOW you are getting somewhere Edge. [lol]

[hyyyper]

i've got a serious reply to that one, really, i'm not kidding,

everyone knows we don't know what will happen when we die.
some ppl say the we will go to some afterlive such as heaven.
other ppl disagree with the statement "if there is such thing, why has no-one ever come back and told us about it".
but when someone says he has been to heaven and has return, he get's locked op in some mentally-ill thingie

How is someone supposed to RETURN from heaven? They're still dead. There have been many many reports of people having near-death experiences and experiencing warmth, comfort, and connection; even seeing the gates and hearing God's voice, while others have had very different near-death experiences where they saw horrific images and a dark, deep emptiness.

check out this website for some information on this. Lives have been changed, and it is the closest that anyone has gotten to going to heaven or hell and returning from it.

Good stuff CJD, thanks for posting that link!!

Although, of course, that could just be attention-seeking on the part of the experience-ee(?) Note that i don't necessarily think that, i'm just trying to be objective. I've heard and believed stories like the ones that cjd's mentioned. It strikes me as insensitive that people can just step on spirituality without consideration at all, but that's your call.

Zane, you're right, there is no proof, it may all be fictional, but then we're just back to faith. Whichever way you look at it, that makes what i (or anyone else) believes as valid as anything else.

Interesting point i'd like to raise here (kind of off-topic, but it's in the general area). My sister went to a funeral today, for one of her boyfriends relatives (i should say at this point that i am in no way being insensitive as i appreciate that it is a difficult time and have already paid my respects and said goodbye). However, the quote i want o pick out here is one of a lot of significance:

"They're not religeous, but the ceremony was very christian, you know...just in case"

I was intrigued by this point, and would like to know how other people feel about it. This is just an example of a widespread occurence, as i'm sure you recognise, and i'd like to know your overall opinion.

Carlosio -- I love ya man and I appreciate you posting this -- but as a Pastor I am going to bow out of this particular segment of the thread. I have had to do a funeral before where the family "was unsure of the decedant's salvation", and personally, it was one of the hardest messages of "hope and honor" I have ever had to do. As we have said before, once you die - your choice is made. So, please forgive me if I do not comment heavily on this, ok? Cheers ...

Absolutely, i figured as much. I think we're totally in the same boat/court/some other weird metaphor again. I'm still not entirely sure what i think about it. I guess i'll be getting a lot of replies like this. Interesting.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by TConwell

Carlosio -- I love ya man and I appreciate you posting this -- but as a Pastor I am going to bow out of this particular segment of the thread. I have had to do a funeral before where the family "was unsure of the decedant's salvation", and personally, it was one of the hardest messages of "hope and honor" I have ever had to do. As we have said before, once you die - your choice is made. So, please forgive me if I do not comment heavily on this, ok? Cheers ...

wasn't it like that you have regret for your sins, you can go the heaven after carriying a rock up a mountain?

Speechless ... just utterly speechless.

Erm, i've never met anything like that, but i don't know. Hehe, if someone proves me wrong i shall salute you.

Kind of off topic anyway, but at least we're trying now.

Lol TC

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by TConwell

Speechless ... just utterly speechless.

well, you're are priest are you going to answer my question?

I think the answer might be no.

Basically, my view is that, as TConwell said, you can't repent once you've passed on. Neither can anyone else "save" you. "Just in case" is a silly thing to say. It's the same in life as well, imo. People who claim to be atheists but pray when they need something. It's a bit hypocritcal for one to claim that they don't believe something and then ask god for help when they want it. Religeon, for me, is not just reliance on God, although it is an important part of it. It is a personal relationship with Christ, a chance to recieve support and give it to others.

So there is a brief overview of my view. I remember the words of a friend of mine back before i became a practising christian:

"There isn't anything like it. I talk to people sometimes, and i can tell they think i'm crazy, but i don't care. It is a private part of my life that they cannot experience, and the feeling is one of the greatest i've ever felt."

Think of it what you will.

[hyyyper]

strange, cos in religion classes here, when someone passes, they go instant to heaven when they behaved good and stuff, but when there have a bad karma (more sins than good deeds) they have to choise to spend a time in 'vagevuur' (dunno the english word) if they regret there sins and they go to hell when they don't regret....

That'll be purgatory. Something i haven't explored, but i am familiar with he concept. I'm not sure though, let me read before i comment on how exactly the "administration" of christianity works.

Simple straight forward doctrinal answer: 2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." This means, when you die, there is no "second chance". You have made your choice, and your destination is final and decided. Thus, you are either in one of two places - there is no purgatory (waiting area) that Jesus ever referred to. Why and how that entered into Catholic doctrine is beyond me, as no theoligical professor I have talked to or asked can find that work even in the Bible. Interestingly enough, Jesus spoke twice as much about hell than he did about heaven, for the very simple purpose of ensuring people knew that they did not have to go to hell, if they chose him.

And I am not a priest, that would be Catholic.

Carlosio -- excellent line of testimony you have from your friend, hang onto that my friend -- that'll set you free.

[coolbeans326]

Since we got onto the topic of death, I feel like being more philisophical, because I can.
Life is so pointless if your just going to waste it on yourself. Everything you do in life is so your happy now, but really it doesn't matter in the end because we'll all die and depending on our choices we could all end up at the same place. For Example Bill Gates has billions and billions of dollars, but all that does is serve him during the present, and he can't take his billions and billions of dollars, and if he were some bum on the street sufferring each day, it wouldn't really matter either, because once your dead, I'm pretty sure you won't remember anything that happened while you were down here on earth as it is your soul that lives on, and not your brain. So really it doesn't matter what you do, if you screw up in life, or if your real successful, and that really matters for is the now, but then there comes a time in everyone's life where that stuff won't matter any more because you won't be in a world where that stuff brings happiness. And so really what you got to make out of your life is not whats going to make me happy now, but rather, what will keep me happy and make other people happy. And that's kind of what God does, whether he's real or not. But its mailny a force that drives us throughout our day, and giving us something to look for, and when we strive to do good for him, often times it feels good, and that good feeling often lasts longer than any buzz you got off of a MJ joint or adrenaline rush you got off of a roller coaster.
And some of you say you wish people would just live thier lives and except there is no heaven. Well I find myself to believe that living for God feels a whole lot better then living for yourself. When your living for God there isn't this whole depression confussion thing, or anything your just living each minute as it goes by helping people.
But when your living for yourself you just do what ever makes you happy at the moment, you smoke joints, you sleep with women, and do w/e it is that makes you feel good, but you only do it to make you feel good, not because you care about the other person or anything, but mainly for yourself, and when the day is done, you eventually find yourself bored of it. Where as the other way you never really do quite get bored.

Basically the message is w/e you do on earth it won't matter because once you have died you will never remember those feelings, but if you live for God then your life would have been much happier than if you had lived without or not for him. And even if he doesn't turn out to exist it won't matter that much, but if he does than one group would sure be a lot happier, and thats mainly why I am happy with my beliefs and even if people tell me not to, I will keep them because it makes me happy.[^]
/rant

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by TConwell


And I am not a priest, that would be Catholic.

then what are u?

you know all this bible stuff, so i guess your not a muslim

An ordained Minister --- two different religions, two different doctrines, two totally different jobs. Hyyyper, do yourself a favor and just stop talking ... you sound like a dyslexic dog trying to bark but instead keeps on meow'ing. Just pay attention and you might learn something and stop making stupid comments. Geesh man -- how many times does it have to be said? <huge eye roll inserted here> That was not a question to you, don't answer it.

[hyyyper]

how should i know? to me everyone who has something to with the bible is a christian... we only have to different forms of chirtiatity in holland, roman-chatolics and protestant, which are basically the same.

but what's the difference btw, i'd really like to know

Catholics don't practise what they preach. (Controversial? i think so)

While the beliefs in terms of what is involved (bible etc.) There is little difference, but the way in which worship is conducted, and the presentation, is very different. One important difference, for example, is the supposedly severe adherence that Catholics "require" to the rules, and the iconography and splendor that they wish to display through ir house of worship etc.

Of course, there are other differences, this is a bare bones, off the top of the head response. I can't think straight atm. Thats what a 12 hour day'll do to you. Sorry. I expect TC'll do a better job anyway.

Let's see... we have Catholics who are all about laws and strict discipline in their faith (and they have Mary as a much more prominent figure than in other faiths), Baptists (most African-American churches are baptist), Presbyterians who center their faith in their everyday lives, Evangelicals whose primary goal is to share faith with others (the guys you see on TV are usually Evengelists), and a bunch of others that I can't remember at the moment.

Then, there are the faiths that have branched off from the beliefs of Christianity and added things... Mormons have another book that they have added to the bible, New Age has combined the Bible with Hinduism and Bhuddism, Agnostics have a completely different set of beliefs about God and Jesus, the list goes on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, TJ.

That'll do CJ ... that'll do.

[hyyyper]

k, thanx for clearing, religion isn't a big thing here in holland, however every village, big or small, even little towns with a population of 600 resident have a church. But only old people go there on sundays, and when someone has died, or some ppl are getting married, then the curch is mostly flowing, not because of the believe, but because it's a tradition to marry in a church.

Also, since more and more ppl for turkey and maroc and coming to holland, the islam is also rising, with more moquees, but only in the big cities.

[gouldy]

Those American guys you see on the TV "If you believe in God(with an A sound on the end for some reason) Then send all of your money to following address(again pronounced with an A on the end)" God damn that's awesome, what an amazing way to make money! I wish I'd thought of that [V] Like I said before, people are immensely stupid, with that as an example because it actually works, people do actually send money ... I mean seriously, wtf? .

Anyway yeah, this topic was getting all a bit too adult for me, I had to bring it back down a notch [;)]