The Smooth Button?

Well, this topic was made because dcs221 and SFMM Homie are debating the advantages and disadvantages of using the smooth button in the track tennis thread, and I want to keep them out (jk, lol[:D]).

Do you use the smooth button? Does it really improve your tracks?

For me, it does, but only on turns and helixes...

well, since i mostly handbuild my tracks, YES, definatly

it does on certian elements

if im doing a barrel roll it makes it nice and smooth but on the rebound it screws up the heart lining big time.

Commenting on use of the smooth button on an AHGed track is slightly different from basically trying to tell someone to shut up because they're apparently 'caught up in their own world.' Much of the time I have read posts from you in the past, SFMM, you've come off in a less than positive way, not even necessarily toward me. Before I even realized who you were as a designer I thought several times, "is this guy *that* good to be treating person X and their ideas/design techniques/etc. this way?" So yeah, that's where I'm coming from on that issue.

Much of the tennis track at least seems to be tooled, which is why it's advantageous to do it the right way the first time like I said. By that, I mean make sure your radii and slopes etc. match up and things like that.

Back when I used to handbuild, I used to use smoother a lot. I'd build an element, smooth, reshape, smooth, etc. If I handbuilt now, I'd probably use a similar process. I just don't think it has much application when using it on AHGed track in general. There are a few cases that I can think of but won't mention, but those usually aren't necessary if the track is done right in the first place.

Since I only hand build, the only reason I use it is to bend the track back to a satisfactory shape after I delete a node or replace one. Other than that, it bends the track awkwardly because it tries to include a heart-line while not moving the nodes, just the handles.

But yeah, once I AHG it (if I do) then there's no reason to edit the AHG'd track since it should be at it's final state by then.

Heh. DCS221 and SFMM Homie are hardly arguing about the smooth button. Dig deeper. It turned into one of those rows about handbuilders "using the skill of their own hands" and toolers "getting it perfect the first time with no need for the smooth button".

The smooth button works for handbuilders. It has no use for toolers. Not everyone's a handbuilder. Not everyone's a tooler. Not EITHER of them is better than the other. Just because you can use advanced formulas to design rides doesn't make you superior. If you can lay track with your hands and get a smooth ride, who cares? If you can make a good roller coaster, it DOESN'T matter how you made it.

The smooth button is there. Use it if you need to.

I don't think it tries to include the heartline, unless I missed something. I haven't experimented with it much, that's just something I didn't see when testing it out real quick here and there. Am I mistaken?

Eh, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. On turn-transitions it does, but it sort of half-does on everything else. At least for me.

It doesn't include heartlines at all. It just matches the radii at the end of segments.

I think it might be trying to shape your turns with a less than sufficient number of vertices, and because of how it modifies the handles you get the appearance of an intentional change in heartline. I could be wrong but that's my take on it.

I only handbuild, no AHG or anything, I've tried using it a few times but I'm always much happier with the way it turns out when I just do it myself.

I think Gerst's post closes this topic better than any other point that can be made, personally.

[jayman]

Originally posted by GerstlCrazy

Heh. DCS221 and SFMM Homie are hardly arguing about the smooth button. Dig deeper. It turned into one of those rows about handbuilders "using the skill of their own hands" and toolers "getting it perfect the first time with no need for the smooth button".

The smooth button works for handbuilders. It has no use for toolers. Not everyone's a handbuilder. Not everyone's a tooler. Not EITHER of them is better than the other. Just because you can use advanced formulas to design rides doesn't make you superior. If you can lay track with your hands and get a smooth ride, who cares? If you can make a good roller coaster, it DOESN'T matter how you made it.
The smooth button is there. Use it if you need to.

well sort of ...on steel coasters the tools would be the way to go , i imagine.their astetic has more to do with inversions and thrilling elements. but there's always something odd about wooden rides built with the elementary.. they come out incredibly smooth, but everything just kinda looks off .. hills come out pointier than they would be in real life, curves tend to be kind of wacky looking too. and wooden coaster layouts made with the tools almost ALWAYS seem to turn out wierd, like rct..

Originally posted by dcs221

I think it might be trying to shape your turns with a less than sufficient number of vertices, and because of how it modifies the handles you get the appearance of an intentional change in heartline. I could be wrong but that's my take on it.

That's probably the reason. It's not a big problem so I don't really worry about it.

Originally posted by dcs221

Commenting on use of the smooth button on an AHGed track is slightly different from basically trying to tell someone to shut up because they're apparently 'caught up in their own world.' Much of the time I have read posts from you in the past, SFMM, you've come off in a less than positive way, not even necessarily toward me. Before I even realized who you were as a designer I thought several times, "is this guy *that* good to be treating person X and their ideas/design techniques/etc. this way?" So yeah, that's where I'm coming from on that issue.

All I said in the first place was for people to try to use the smooth button between connecting thier own elements to others, not even for smoothing thier elements out within themselves. You are the one that jumped on my post immediately starting up the fire by basically saying "us tool people dont even need the smoother because we are superior in all matters". Im not really telling anybody how to do anything, you are the one who has escalated this into having its own thread. You would not believe how many people I could get to support me on the fact that you are one of the cockiest builders out there.

You got all that out of "Who uses the smoother? I don't..." which was related to this track, not random Joe's handbuilt track?

I try not to be cocky, when I advertise my stuff it's strictly to gain interest and highlight good things like real advertising, and when I argue a point it's because I've thought through it and think what I'm saying is correct. I was just speaking with WWS and it came up that my main goal in NL is to create a good final product, and I know when I've done that and I stand behind my stuff after the huge amount of work I put into it. After initially smiling or frowning based on peoples' comments on my stuff, I consider what each person says probably more than most anyone here. Someone who's as cocky or arrogant as you describe generally doesn't truely consider what others say, and whether you realize it or not I truely do.

But with that said, cocky > mean.


jayman, it all depends on how you do it. I agree that many wooden designs in NL done with elementary are too smooth, but from what I've found that's not Elementary's fault. The designer must choose the correct formula/wizard to use, and use it in such a way that, like you said in your example, hills aren't too pointy, and things like that. Things that you noticed are things that a lot of people don't, so that's why you see so many similar design features that aren't really fully realistic.

All I'll say about the smoother is that it's useful no matter how you build. If you're not using it, you're making things harder on yourself.

dcs, SFMM isn't cocky. He probably has good reason for whatever he argues. Though, to be fair, I think the way in which he presents an argument might not come off too well. And from the perspective of a disinterested spectator, I find it funny how you say he's cocky when you're the one appointing good value to (in your mind) considering what people say about your products more than anyone here; it's hard to believe that that's true.

[hyyyper]

i find the smooth button annoying, it never does what i like and so i only use it on flat turns and helices. Crap thing doesn't work well with vertical track or anything that has a height difference because it doesn't incorporate gravity

I didn't say SFMM was cocky, SMer, I said he called me cocky, and even if that was true it's better than being mean. Whether I think he's cocky or not I did not say and I will not say, I'll keep those thoughts to myself.

Look at the 2006 contest SMer, and check out the change in the ratings I received from the first to the last relative to others. I guarantee you, the reason for that was not that I got so much better, it was because I read everything cjd said about my ride and others, and built on that. I do that all the time when releasing rides, and it's much of the reason my ratings keep going up on CS. Keep in mind, the point of me saying that is not to say I'm better than someone else, or that I care more, it's that I put tons of emphasis on considering what other people have to say and use it to improve. Cocky people generally don't care what other people think because they think they know everything. I know it wasn't on purpose but it seems you completely misunderstood my point.

Whatever, this whole thing is irrelevant, SFMM calling me cocky was irrelevant, I'm done.

I am starting to realize that some elements (that I use that are un-modified) in Elementary cannot match the smoother (I could be wrong, but I do not have certain formulas, however). I use it more and more now, and I am starting to balance using FVDs HSAK and the smoother (handbuilt). I also use the smoother to work out some transition problems.

Originally posted by dcs221

Someone who's as cocky or arrogant as you describe generally doesn't truely consider what others say, and whether you realize it or not I truely do.

Am I not reading far enough into this? Does it not say "Someone who's as cocky or arrogant as you?" Because I think it does...

Yeah you misunderstood that statement. Read it this way, as this is how I meant it: "Someone who's as cocky or arrogant as you describe"

alrighty then[:)]

[:)]

[jayman]

well.. the smooth button doesnt seem to be the blessing i thought it would be, but i tell you what, i LOVE the old one! and i 'm gonna dig in one of these days and make the new one work!

Originally posted by SMer
I find it funny how you say he's cocky when you're the one appointing good value to (in your mind) considering what people say about your products more than anyone here; it's hard to believe that that's true.

Huh? Completly confused...

Originally posted by SMer
Am I not reading far enough into this? Does it not say "Someone who's as cocky or arrogant as you?" Because I think it does...

As mentioned, definatly misread / misconstrued his text. You gotta watch that. If you are going to go on the offensive against someone you better make sure your tracks are completely covered.

Originally posted by SFMM Homie
"us tool people dont even need the smoother because we are superior in all matters"

And thats clearly also been misconstrued. I highly doubt Dcs would ever say that - let alone say it like that which implies he has no character or control over his words - which he does. Nice way to twist his words - you succeeded there at least.