Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

Originally posted by hyyyper

well....you are stating that they can't post cartoons that are about the holocaust....right?

now, why would the be unable to post cartoons that may upset us, and we (as in westerns) can post cartoons that upset them....? that's not right, if you find a cartoon upsetting, that don't look at it (anymore), but don't go light an embassy

and if they would post something that might upset us, most of us don't care, the worst thing these muslims should fear is a <insert severe eye roll> from Tcon

They can make cartoons about whatever they want, I just said that it is very hypocritical of them to get this upset about a cartoon when they do the same thing about Jewish people, except what they do is probably worse.

[hyyyper]

that's from your perspective, but you're right, i agree

Oh Geez...well I better start from the top.
Going in reverse order...



And one more...

Originally posted by gouldy

the difference with me is, I'm honestly not bothered whether I am or not, because, what's the point of living in fear of what happens to us after we die, when in all probability we do actually just die and seize to exist, only our puny minds can't handle that and so we make these things up to appease ourselves, like I said, it really is amusing.

Who said I (or other christians) live in fear?

Your problem is you know far too little about religion and any of the religions to make any rational thoughts about them. Plus you base all of your knowledge off of generalized ideals and dont get your knowledge from the source.

Originally posted by gouldy

Something is true just because the bible says it is? This is what makes me laugh so much about stuff like this, I mean, actually what the fudge? People wouldn't look at me twice if I walked around saying "listen to me, what I am saying is true because I am saying it!". So why is it the case for the bible, or any other holy book for that matter. "Oh no, this was written in a book many years ago, therefore it must be true and no one can challenge what it is saying or we will riot and burn things down like the peaceful, loving people that worshipping this god has made us into!"

I knew youd take it that way. Ill answer you with a question. Did I, anywhere in my response you quoted tell you that because I think its true that you have too? Ill answer for you - NO.

Youve made more commotion telling me how I should believe what you believe (in nothing) than I have for you. Are you insecure or are you just that passionate about telling me what I should believe? I cant count the number of posts youve made telling me how what I believe is so funny and how believing in nothing is correct.

That's terrible anyway, the way you said that as well, "BUT its in alignment with what the Bible says so its true." as if people who believe in God are just somehow much better than everyone else ... That statement is appalling infact, it really is a terribly stuck up thing to say no matter what we are refering to.

You try too hard to read into things that chriatians say because its a common hypocritical and generalized view that christians are stuck up and think they are better than everyone else. So Ill ask you to stop because you dont know what you are talking about. I dont see how stating that I think what the Bible says is true has anything to do with where I place myself among other people.

It is funny though how stoutly religious people believe what they are saying is true, just because it's written in a book . It's very ... gullible of them if you ask me

Is it gullible to believe whats written in a book thats got applications for all areas of my life plus evidence in my life that its true or is it even more gullible to follow the crowd and join them in that chant?

You tell me. Why would I choose this way of life when I know Ill have to be assaulted by people like you for absolutly no reason other than you are insecure or you dont like that I dont believe what you believe? Makes no sense if you ask me. But you wouldnt do that because you wouldnt want to get any information from a first hand source - just what you hear and see from people who arent christians.

What may bake your noodle is that I can talk right with you because I believed what you did at one time so I know everything you say but you dont know much, if anything about christianity (or other religions) so all you can do is poke fun with inserting a "lol" every third sentence. Theres nothing you can say that I dont already know about since you claim to believe in nothing.

It amuses me that even though I have not made any reference to you or talked about what you believe that you find it so neccisary to make fun of me, what I believe and to tell me the many ways that you are more correct than me. Hypocracy? Yea, I think so.

I dont think Im better than you but it does seem rather fruitless to try and hold a conversation with someone in which you know very little about that subject. Want to talk about roller coasters? Ill talk with you all day with no problems or predejuces. But if you do want to talk about christianity, then make sure you brush up on it. Or, come talk to me with an open mind and I will be glad to talk and exchange ideas then.

Purposeful double post:

Heres the answer to the first post in this thread:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11272557/

^^ and ^, Amen. It is senseless to argue over someone elses religon, nothing will ever come of it, nothing usually does on the internet.

^Its not pointless unless one of the two things I stated is present.

1. The persons are openly talking back and forth
2. One wants to know from the other

Originally posted by gouldy

the difference with me is, I'm honestly not bothered whether I am or not, because, what's the point of living in fear of what happens to us after we die, when in all probability we do actually just die and seize to exist, only our puny minds can't handle that and so we make these things up to appease ourselves, like I said, it really is amusing.

Agreed. I really do think the people who create (and many who follow) religions are just scared of the truth. Every creature is born, lives for no reason at all, then dies. There isn't an afterlife, there's no god, and there's no heaven or hell. It's too depressing for most people to handle so they can't live with theirselves if it's actually the truth. It was hard for me to face at first when I gave up Christianity, but I can accept it just fine now. It's really love up that people feel the need to lie to theirselves their whole life so they don't need to face the depressing truth.

IF -

1. Prove theres no afterlife
2. Prove theres no God
3. Prove theres no Heaven or no hell.


Just like Gouldy you are just conforming to the general consensus on why people believe in God. You were never shown, in person what it was to be a christian hence why you, still to this day, are mislead about what it is.

[hyyyper]

^agreed with both, why do ppl even become chirtain, or a religious person at all,

for me, i am not religious and afcourse can't know the answer but i can't think of a reason or something a street-preacher would have to say to me to believe in an old guy on a cloud who made everything,

the only reason i can think of now is that you have someone to blame when your life goes wrong

^Old guy on a cloud? Thats just one way that someone envisions God.

Why blame God? Why play the blame game at all? Life happens and I believe it all happens for a reason but thats because I use every up and down as something to learn from hence constantly maturing.


I will go out on a limb here, but the one thing that most past believers or nay-sayers have in common is they didnt have a good, real, christian base around them. They either had someone who wasnt really a christian at all or they were on their own.

I know IntaminFan didnt have anyone in his life on a daily basis to show him how to live his life. What happens to that? Its a seed planted on the rocks. It grows quickly but because it has nothing to cling too, it dies out.

What you said hyyyper is somewhat intriguing. I dont really believe that you can hear something someone says and then convert without watching and seeing the person who said it. If you are walking down the street and someone preaching and converts you, I dont think thats a real conversion.

But if you follow that person, become friends and see him ACT out what he says, then you will have a better idea.



This is a quote I enjoy:
Preach the Word of God and if neccisary, use words.


Of course no ones going to believe what I say, or Tcon or anyone else unless they lived alongside of us. If you did so, you would see something radically different than youve seen with other people and thats how you make your decision. Not based on words but on actions that coincide with those words.

Walk the walk and talk the talk but dont just do one. You will mislead everyone you come in contact with.

I see that IntaminFan397 is back to the same old thing again -- although just a year ago ... nah, nevermind -- his retoric ain't worth it anymore. My answer to all here will remain the same -- I hope for YOUR SAKE you are right in your claims of their being no God. I know what I believe and I know where I am going when I die. End of story.

Real - You can lead a horse to water .....

[hyyyper]

yup, if just everyone believes what they want to and don't bother anybody with, everything'll be just fine...

but i'm still curious, sorry for asking, but how do you know where you're going?

Faith.

Everyone has faith. Scientists have faith. You have faith, everyone has it. In what is up to you.

[hyyyper]

hmm...sounds right

[Brtnboarder495]

This isn't to offend anyone here, as this is my opinion ...

To me religion is an excuse for those who plainly are just lazy and unmotivated and sometimes just stubborn and say that God will take care of everything. I think it's bad in some situations, because there is no afterlife, and so why not work for anything and just live a have-assed life and then you die and realize there is no afterlife and that then you've wasted your one and only life for nothing.

The Catholic Church is full of hypocrisy. Gay people aren't accepted, yet we have male priests raping boys. Pre-marital sex isn't accepted, yet we have male priests raping boys, that aren't married and aren't supposed to have sex. Material things mean nothing, what makes you a "christian" is helping others and doing God's work, yet you are made to feel guilty when you don't donate money.

I don't know a full-fledged active Christian that isn't stuck-up in the manner that they don't believe any religion is near equal to theirs.

But remember, this is just my opinion. Just because I don't choose to live my life by a book of ideas and stories and an overall "idea", doesn't mean I'm not happy.

I see the church as a whole disintegrating over the next few centuries, the churches "responsibility" is no longer that important in many families and communities anymore. The church was needed before we had science and we were humane and civil, to determine how the earth came to be and how we should convey ourselves. But just how many other civilizations had Myth's and many other God's to explain things they couldn't explain during their time and then these beliefs/religions disappeared, so will other religions. Science will replace religion, unless you want to live stubbornly against pure facts.

Don't think I'm immoral either, because I am easily the best mannered teenager out of any guy in my grade, and I go to a Catholic School.

[jayman]

NOOOOOOOOOO........ it started again.........

Sorry jay, just have to pose a question. I'd like this answered by those without faith in religeon, rather than those who do. No forcing please.

All i want you to do, for me, is prove it. Prove that there is no God, prove that there is no afterlife. Prove these claims, and i shall follow you. Honestly, i'm putting my whole (self-constructed through study, reading and prayer) belief system on the line. If you feel so strongly and believe these things, prove them to me.

And, to anticipate your response, i don't have to prove that these things do exist. I'm not asking any of you to believe what i tell you, but you are asking me to destroy a huge part of my life. I think it's only fair you give me good reason.

As it is impossible to prove that God does exist, it's impossible to prove that he doesn't exist. Its just a mather of what you believe in. For me it seems strange that there can be something more to this life. I just don't believe it before I see it[;)]

I understand religious people, and I'm not in any way offended. What offends me are first of all people trying to force their religion (or lack of) on to others, and secondly people that believes so strongly in religion that it covers everything else.

I agree, but that is the point of what i'm saying. People are claiming that there is no God, my challenge is for them to back up that claim. Do you see what i'm saying?

X - thats the beauty in God. You cant say He doesnt exist and you cant say He does exist with anything other than Faith.

Faith though is something all people have. In order to say thers no God you need to have faith in what you believe because theres no evidence against or for other than faith.


Living a life after Christ is your whole life though. Not just a little, or a part of you - your whole life. Plus, as Christians, we are called to spread the Good news but never to "force" or make people convert. Just to spread the Gospel. As long as people hear it - its their decision. We plant the seeds, God provides the water.

[hyyyper]

^i always thought coulds did that...

but take it into perspective, more than the half of the US population believe in god/jezus/bible and stuff, but the bible is just a book like many others, a collection of stories were the things that people didn't know the answer to was answered with god, now it's 2,000 years later, and doesn't the book seem outdated. . .,

and i am curious if over another 2,000 years people are going to believe that Lord of the Rings, or the ferry tales from the bros. Grim have become a religion

Its relevant then, today and tomorrow because the teachings transcend time. They were not just teachings for then, but forever. Its a way of life and if you take some time to read the New Testament, youll see how awesome it is that it all does translate.

Well no, hyyyper, because the Lord of the Rings is recorded as a story, a fictional tale written by an author. Compare that with the Bible and there are huge differences.

The New Testament is thought to have been written between about 50AD and anywhere up to 250AD (these are rough dates, i'm not keyed into the exact calculated dates) by men who were retrospectively telling the story of a man named Jesus. They didn't set out to construct a fictional tale, but to record the events of the man that was seen as the messiah.

Gouldy argued that no one would simply record the teachings of a random man, but Christ wasn't a random man, he collected a group of followers to help him teach the world. It is these men who initiated the writing of the gospels. Some might argue that it is a fictional story made up to back up Christianity as a faith.

However, most of the eleven (Judas obviously having killed himself before Christs death) were executed in ways far worse than that of Jesus himself. Why would these men die for something they had made up. Common sense (an argument often used against Christianity and other faiths) dictates that they believed wholey in what they were preaching and what was later documented.

You have to remember that the Gospels were not written as Christ went, but afterwards. There is a lot you can learn just by reading around a little bit on the subject.


P.S. Some good quotes around about the real christian mentality, so enough of this "stop trying to force it on us"

Right on Real, hehe (how camp, oops)

Oh, good! A religious debate! Just in time... I could really use some guidance right now.

Generally, I am a very religious person. Every time that I turn to God, I find answers and I find wisdom. However, while I was recently browsing through Google, I stumbled upon a very disturbing article. Most of the article is complete rubbish, asking questions like 'why doesn't god heal amputees' and such. I had a good laugh, but then I found this... (Click here to read article.) It was definitely not something that I expected to find in the Bible, and it has filled me with doubt. TConwell or Real, can you please put this into context? It was painful to read that there was so much sexism in the Bible.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by Carlosio

Well no, hyyyper, because the Lord of the Rings is recorded as a story, a fictional tale written by an author. Compare that with the Bible and there are huge differences.

The ferry tales in the books of the Grim bros. also don't have a author, and are of all times

The New Testament is thought to have been written between about 50AD and anywhere up to 250AD (these are rough dates, i'm not keyed into the exact calculated dates) by men who were retrospectively telling the story of a man named Jesus. They didn't set out to construct a fictional tale, but to record the events of the man that was seen as the messiah.

Who says jezus ever existed? Perhaps in another 2,000 people will include a fictional biography of someone in their 'new bible'

Gouldy argued that no one would simply record the teachings of a random man, but Christ wasn't a random man, he collected a group of followers to help him teach the world. It is these men who initiated the writing of the gospels. Some might argue that it is a fictional story made up to back up Christianity as a faith.

So jezus was leading a cult that grew out of hand...

However, most of the eleven (Judas obviously having killed himself before Christs death) were executed in ways far worse than that of Jesus himself. Why would these men die for something they had made up. Common sense (an argument often used against Christianity and other faiths) dictates that they believed wholey in what they were preaching and what was later documented.

Looks at the cults again, they often commit massive suicide if they aren't taken serious

You have to remember that the Gospels were not written as Christ went, but afterwards. There is a lot you can learn just by reading around a little bit on the subject.

The bible has also got stories from that appear in hindoeist and buddist scrolls, which are much older

ready for the next flamer