Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

Hyyyper, i have lost patience with you. I'm not telling you to agree with me, just to absorb and consider, and your lack of effort to even start doing so is, well, dissappointing.

Just a few things, at no point did Jesus talk to a burning bush, that's an old testament event. Incidentally, the OT is not "borrowed", it is a jewish book. The reason it is relevant to Christianity is the definitions given to the forthcoming Messiah, the stipulations that must be met in order for him to be the one (yes, it's these "rules" that Jesus matches)

Suicide and execution are in totally different leagues. One is a choice, the other is a sentence. They couldn't be much father apart. Nobody asked the deciples to die, nor did they choose to do so. It was forced upon them because of the faith that they upheld so vigilantly.

Also, you did say that there was no proof that Jesus existed, then went back on that entirely afterwards. Stick to a story if you're going to preach it.

Finally, yes there is evidence that a creator exists. Now go and read about it before you try and demean someone who knows far more than you do.



Sorry, Mai, for burying your question. I got caught up with other things. Apologies.

Originally posted by Real


Im not against women having careers, jobs, etc outside of marraige. However, I have known and have heard many studies on women who have chose the whole "womans movement" side of things where there is this huge need to go out, be as good as a man and acheive the same goals as a man. However, the studies prove that a troubly trend is emerging.

Most women who follow these career paths do it alone. They usually are told (by other powerful women) that it cant be done with a husband and a family because it requires too many resources. That you need total focus and that will only take away from it.

It falls right in line with the worlds view that in order to have a fullfilling life you have to be successful and more specifically - with a career. This couldnt be further from the truth.

I'm actually not really that type of person. I'm not out to prove anything. All that I want is the freedom to choose for myself. The whole idea of "having everything but truly having nothing" is universal to the whole human race, not just restricted to strong women. Love and compassion is what keeps us sane. And as was famously said by Paul McCartney, "Money can't buy me love... can't buy me loooove..."

Originally posted by nicke

I agree with what you said. This is refering to the times of Jesus Christ, not now. Remember, this happened 2000 years ago.

Thank you for restating what I just eluded too and clarified. As far as your long post before it, what source did you get that from? It is not bad, I would just appreciate reading a bit more on the matter and bookmarking as a reference for later.

Originally posted by hyyyper

evidence, yeah right...you tell me what evidence there is god exists

Way to interject something that has nothing to to do with the conversation's direction at the moment. You know what you remind me of? A big huge dinner and the kids from the kiddie table making comments on things they heard earlier. Keep up with the conversation man, it will help your credibility and those at the grown-up table might actually pay attention to what you have to say.

Originally posted by Mai of the Fire

TConwell, about finding an answer, I will do so. God has already spoken to me through my dreams before. This is one of the things that makes me believe so much. I can feel him. Here is a description of what happened...

If there is anything I can do to help, just drop a line! And yes, He IS Risen indeed!

And Real, way to lay it out my brother.

Originally posted by Mai of the Fire
I'm actually not really that type of person. I'm not out to prove anything. All that I want is the freedom to choose for myself. The whole idea of "having everything but truly having nothing" is universal to the whole human race, not just restricted to strong women. Love and compassion is what keeps us sane. And as was famously said by Paul McCartney, "Money can't buy me love... can't buy me loooove..."

Then you really have nothing to worry about. That passage really isnt going to restrict you any.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by Carlosio

Hyyyper, i have lost patience with you. I'm not telling you to agree with me, just to absorb and consider, and your lack of effort to even start doing so is, well, dissappointing.

i am reading your comment and thinking them over, but they don't reach me,

Just a few things, at no point did Jesus talk to a burning bush, that's an old testament event. Incidentally, the OT is not "borrowed", it is a jewish book. The reason it is relevant to Christianity is the definitions given to the forthcoming Messiah, the stipulations that must be met in order for him to be the one (yes, it's these "rules" that Jesus matches)

Well, perhaps it's not jesus, but atleadt someone did, and hearing a buring bush speak, makes my really doubt his credibilty

Suicide and execution are in totally different leagues. One is a choice, the other is a sentence. They couldn't be much father apart. Nobody asked the deciples to die, nor did they choose to do so. It was forced upon them because of the faith that they upheld so vigilantly.

Like said before, they are indeed different, but in this case it's die-ing for what you believe in, and looks at those muslim terrorist for another example

Also, you did say that there was no proof that Jesus existed, then went back on that entirely afterwards. Stick to a story if you're going to preach it.

I didn't said jesus didn't existed, there are roman scrolls saying someone like him existed.

Finally, yes there is evidence that a creator exists. Now go and read about it before you try and demean someone who knows far more than you do.

a creator that exists? science has learned us that everything can be broken down in elements and even futher bits. And if you trace back the movement of planets and stuff, they all seem to originate from one single point.

Originally posted by hyyyper


a creator that exists? science has learned us that everything can be broken down in elements and even futher bits. And if you trace back the movement of planets and stuff, they all seem to originate from one single point.

@ "science has learned us everything". You might as well say "we be edgumacated"

Anyway, back on topic, proving the Big Bang Theory would have no effect at all on Christianity. Who is to say that God didn't cause the big bang? The only thing that science could do to definitively contradict Genesis would be to prove that humans evolved from apes. And even then, that doesn't rule out the possiblity of Genesis being a metaphor.

[hyyyper]

^as a methaphor, yes, but some ppl take the text of the bible literaly and do bad things with them

I've said it so many times i give up. Whether you realise it or not, you are being a fool. I am hereby bowing out. Apologies to those of you intelligent enough to understand and continue to have a reasonable discussion, i have interfered enough.

Thanks for reading at least.

[hyyyper]

^at least i'm sticking with the fact and not an overage book

Originally posted by hyyyper

^at least i'm sticking with the fact and not an overage book

Fact? What fact have you offered into evidence? Your opinion? Just because you say it is fact does not make it so ... and as for the "overage" (whatever that word means) book? Well, account after account has been proven from that book as historical fact. What do you have? [dunno]

I think he's just referring to the fact that he's using the experiences of his life rather than of the past, I could be wrong about though. I don't really think religion is worth arguing so strongly about, for me it's just a faith that some have ad some don't, and neither side is right or wrong. Those who are religious (which I am), can be religious and should feel that they are following the right path, and those who aren't religious, can stay that way and should feel that they are following the right path. That's why arguing over religion as you guys are is quite pointless. Those who are religious are religious because that's what they believe, and those who aren't religious aren't religious because that's what they believe. It's not like someone is going to change the beliefs they live by just because someone they dont know types online that they should, so there's really no point to these little religious flamewars that always seem to arise every once in a while. Both sides present valid reasons, and both sides are right in their own respects, so IMO we should all just agree to disagree on the issue of religion rather than try to convince others of why we're right and they aren't.
Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by TConwell

Originally posted by nicke

I agree with what you said. This is refering to the times of Jesus Christ, not now. Remember, this happened 2000 years ago.

Thank you for restating what I just eluded too and clarified. As far as your long post before it, what source did you get that from? It is not bad, I would just appreciate reading a bit more on the matter and bookmarking as a reference for later.

Originally posted by hyyyper

evidence, yeah right...you tell me what evidence there is god exists

Way to interject something that has nothing to to do with the conversation's direction at the moment. You know what you remind me of? A big huge dinner and the kids from the kiddie table making comments on things they heard earlier. Keep up with the conversation man, it will help your credibility and those at the grown-up table might actually pay attention to what you have to say.

Originally posted by Mai of the Fire

TConwell, about finding an answer, I will do so. God has already spoken to me through my dreams before. This is one of the things that makes me believe so much. I can feel him. Here is a description of what happened...

If there is anything I can do to help, just drop a line! And yes, He IS Risen indeed!

And Real, way to lay it out my brother.

Check out www.rapturealert.com. It is a brilliant website. I am sorry I did not give them credit before. I forgot to write something to the effect. Good job to them!

Ehh. Im not a big fan of so called Rapture alert stuff. Whats it prove? That what was prophecied is going to happen? That should be a given for any Christian. And it shouldnt be used to scare people into believing God is real. Thats the last way a person should come to know God is through pure fear - but rather through seeking Him out because they need Him.

It also should have no effect on a Christian. Whether the Rapture would happen today, tomorrow or 100 years from now should not affect the way you live your life. Alot lately I have seen this growing trend on trying to predict and wrap our brains around the idea and prophecy of the rapture but its beyond our grasp. We know its going to happen - thats it. Nothing more is really needed.

Plus, people have been talking of the Rapture and pointing to signs for hundreds of years. Its like the power of suggestion. If you go looking to make things "connect" you can. Only God knows what stage we are in and thats all I need. I still try to live my life as each day is the last.



hyyyper - Buddy, and I mean that in a good way, the Bible is a real book. Many, many stories have been verfied and many people have been identified to have lived using Science. However, let me ask you this.

You put all your weight and belief on Science. But how good is Science? Isnt Science basically the knowledge of man? Science is basically mans library of knowledge of all things in the world as we know it.

Now, is not man full of flaws? Arent we perfectly imperfect? Do we not constantly change theories and hypothesis and SOMETIMES even change facts after new discoveries are made? Yes to each of those.

Secondly, take a look at what we know then compare with what we dont know. Well, techincally, you dont know what you dont know because if you did you would know it. But just try to imagine all the things out there in the land, air and sea (and space) that we dont know a thing about. Pretty far stretching distance right?

Science is completely limited by the human brain. Now, its been established that majority of humans use no more than 10-12% of their brain. So, if what we know (which is actually probably pretty small) is only as a result of using that much of our brain and its been deemed pretty much impossible to go beyond 15 or 20%, doesnt that completely limit Science?


Plus theres the whole faith aspect. Scientists, you, I, we all use faith. I use my faith to believe in God based on what He has done in my life because I have let Him. You use faith to believe in what scientists (mere man) say is fact based on their brains which are not really much different than yours or mine. Plus, as I said before, we are perfectly imperfect. What we say is fact today could be proven wrong tomorrow. Is that fact?


Fact is alot of times a temporary status for an idea of subject. Facts change just like ideas change.


You can go ahead and put your trust in mere men. I, knowing myself fairly well and how imperfect I am, I choose not too. I cant trust myself to know whats fact and not so I let my God do it for me. Man is completely incapable of determining facts with enough certaintity and accuracy to be right more than they are wrong.


Im not here to push it on anyone. I am here to tell you what I beleive and why and whats happened in my life that proves it. As Ive said before, I am a medical miracle in which a band of several very good doctors had no reason for my healing after 4 weeks of tests other than "God healed you". And that goes on day after day after day.

Our knowledge is extremely limited but because the human race is so selfish and arrogent they fail to see past their own self rightousness.

Originally posted by Real

Ehh. Im not a big fan of so called Rapture alert stuff. Whats it prove? That what was prophecied is going to happen? That should be a given for any Christian. And it shouldnt be used to scare people into believing God is real. Thats the last way a person should come to know God is through pure fear - but rather through seeking Him out because they need Him.

It also should have no effect on a Christian. Whether the Rapture would happen today, tomorrow or 100 years from now should not affect the way you live your life. Alot lately I have seen this growing trend on trying to predict and wrap our brains around the idea and prophecy of the rapture but its beyond our grasp. We know its going to happen - thats it. Nothing more is really needed.

Plus, people have been talking of the Rapture and pointing to signs for hundreds of years. Its like the power of suggestion. If you go looking to make things "connect" you can. Only God knows what stage we are in and thats all I need. I still try to live my life as each day is the last.



hyyyper - Buddy, and I mean that in a good way, the Bible is a real book. Many, many stories have been verfied and many people have been identified to have lived using Science. However, let me ask you this.

You put all your weight and belief on Science. But how good is Science? Isnt Science basically the knowledge of man? Science is basically mans library of knowledge of all things in the world as we know it.

Now, is not man full of flaws? Arent we perfectly imperfect? Do we not constantly change theories and hypothesis and SOMETIMES even change facts after new discoveries are made? Yes to each of those.

Secondly, take a look at what we know then compare with what we dont know. Well, techincally, you dont know what you dont know because if you did you would know it. But just try to imagine all the things out there in the land, air and sea (and space) that we dont know a thing about. Pretty far stretching distance right?

Science is completely limited by the human brain. Now, its been established that majority of humans use no more than 10-12% of their brain. So, if what we know (which is actually probably pretty small) is only as a result of using that much of our brain and its been deemed pretty much impossible to go beyond 15 or 20%, doesnt that completely limit Science?


Plus theres the whole faith aspect. Scientists, you, I, we all use faith. I use my faith to believe in God based on what He has done in my life because I have let Him. You use faith to believe in what scientists (mere man) say is fact based on their brains which are not really much different than yours or mine. Plus, as I said before, we are perfectly imperfect. What we say is fact today could be proven wrong tomorrow. Is that fact?


Fact is alot of times a temporary status for an idea of subject. Facts change just like ideas change.


You can go ahead and put your trust in mere men. I, knowing myself fairly well and how imperfect I am, I choose not too. I cant trust myself to know whats fact and not so I let my God do it for me. Man is completely incapable of determining facts with enough certaintity and accuracy to be right more than they are wrong.


Im not here to push it on anyone. I am here to tell you what I beleive and why and whats happened in my life that proves it. As Ive said before, I am a medical miracle in which a band of several very good doctors had no reason for my healing after 4 weeks of tests other than "God healed you". And that goes on day after day after day.

Our knowledge is extremely limited but because the human race is so selfish and arrogent they fail to see past their own self rightousness.

It depends on how you view it if it scares you. Here is a verse that the Bible intends to send a message to you. Jude 1:21-23: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire.

God intends that some people will be saved through fear. It sometimes only takes those that are true sceptics to cause this-

I have a story I will tell you later, so stay tunned-

Nick

The type of fear used in Jude isnt the same that would be used in scaring people into the end times.

Theres a difference between fearing God (a good fear) and fearing for the end times.


Remember, you are not supposed to look to the end times with fear and trouble but with joy and passion. When you tell someone "The end times are near! If you dont repent and ask God for forgivness then ask Him into your heart you will be left here to suffer through the Tribulation!" they are going to think about their lives and that they dont want to lose it. But thats a direct conflict with Jesus's teachings that "you must lose your life to gain it and those who keep their life will lose it."

I dont see how the type of fear generated by explaining the End Times to someone is a good fear and will make them fear God in a way that makes them want to love Him and continue the works for the Kingdom.

Originally posted by Real

The type of fear used in Jude isnt the same that would be used in scaring people into the end times.

Theres a difference between fearing God (a good fear) and fearing for the end times.


Remember, you are not supposed to look to the end times with fear and trouble but with joy and passion. When you tell someone "The end times are near! If you dont repent and ask God for forgivness then ask Him into your heart you will be left here to suffer through the Tribulation!" they are going to think about their lives and that they dont want to lose it. But thats a direct conflict with Jesus's teachings that "you must lose your life to gain it and those who keep their life will lose it."

I dont see how the type of fear generated by explaining the End Times to someone is a good fear and will make them fear God in a way that makes them want to love Him and continue the works for the Kingdom.

The fear I am talking about is not about (Fear or loyalty) to God, but Fear in General. As it does say, some will be compassionate and others will be pulled from the fire (Saved) by fear. I think that means that some people do need to be afraid. Some really don't except something until they are afraid of it. Some never do though. It is a win/lose situation. Some pull through and others don't.

Example---


A lot of people today believe Hell shouldn't be spoken of by Christians because it's frightening. Although I am of the opinion Christians should generally lead people to Christ by telling them of His love, some people won't respond to that. The Bible tells us some people need to be told about Hell.

Jude 1:21-23: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire

I have quite a few bibles for just this type of moment. I didnt think it felt like it was worded right and it doesnt really seem like it is.

I have a Jewish New Testament which I love (Im not Jewish) because its alot of the old original Hebrew and Aramaic words which are original to the texts. I also have a monster concordance and a Commentary for the JNT.

Check this out, it may shed some light on that passage you never thought about before.


Heres how it reads:

Jude 1:21-23
Thus keep yourselves in God's love, as you wait for our Lord Yeshua (Jesus) the MEssiah to give you the mercy that leads to eternal life. 22 Rebuke some who are disputing; save others, snatching them out of the fire; show mercy, but with fear, hating even the clothes stained by their vices.

From the commentary:

22-23
There are a number of textual variants of these two verses; several of them mention only two kinds of people who have left the "most holy faith" (v.20), but the preponderant evidence favors three:
(1) Those who are disputing have closed themselves off to the truth. One can neither teach nor save them, only rebuke them, praying that God will help them change.
(2) Others, who have been swept along by the libertine disputers, are themselves relatively innocent but in grave danger of falling away. Save them, snatching them out of the fire, then ground them in the principals of the truth.
(3) Yet others have fallen into sin but have not lost their basic teachability, so that they may be restored. To them, show mercy, but with fear, hating even the clothes stained by their vices - love the sinner, but hate the sin. "You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you wont be tempted too" (Ga. 6:1)


They shouldnt have the fear, we should. We should fear that we must be on our guard - not use fear as a weapon to win them over.

And that, my friends, is why arguing with Real is essentially declaring that you want to be showed up intellectually.

Oh, come on now. Its not about being shown up! Its about sharing information and resources. Heck, I didnt remember that passage and because he brought it too my attention I did some research and whamo - got a great answer like that.

Commentaries and Concordances rule like that. They give you angles to think and look at that you dont usually get even from a Study Bible. Really opens up the texts.

Plus my huge concordance has all the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew meanings of different words which are essential to fully understanding scripture in its fullest. Theres some awesome references which really show how brilliant the writers were.

Haha, very true, I was just messing around in saying that. And this was a good example of a major problem with quoting the bible. Pretty much everything in the bible we read and comprehend today can be read to mean something entriely different than its original meaning. That's why people who intensely study and interpret the bible(and who's first language is English) always need to be cappable of understanding various languages aside from English. With a knowledge of the bible in only English it's pretty much impossible to fully understand and comprehend the bible, because various parts of it just aren't the same in English as they were meant to be. And, as you stated Real, it's always nice to have access to in depth commentaries that add greater insight to the depth of knowledge available within the Bible, be it in a religious or historical context.

That's one of the great things about the Bible... millions of people are reading the exact same words, yet it seems that nobody interprets it exactly the same way.

Here are two things that most Christians believe to be horrible sins, but I have found to be not necessarily sinful: (by all means, correct me if I'm wrong...)

-Gambling
This is an especially important one to me, because I am a semi-professional poker player. Thankfully, as I read through the Bible, I never saw a single verse that said gambling is a sin. What is a sin is the love of money. And since I mostly play for either fun or to make a living, and I really hate money in general because of what it does to people, I believe that my poker play is not sinful. Yet, my mom's church did not have that view. When I asked the priest (yeah, my mom is catholic...) about it, he completely condolled any form of gambling for any reason. I highly disagreed, as I have seen no Biblical evidence of this, and ended up switching churches because I was tired of how totalitarian and tradition-based the catholic church was.

-Homosexuality
This is the 'big one'. From what I have read, the sin is completely sexually realated, and has nothing to do with actually being gay or not. The Bible never says "it is a sin to be attracted to the same gender", it only mentions "sexual immorality" and "not sleeping with a man as you would sleep with a woman". It never says that being in love with someone of the same gender is a sin, just that having sex with them is a sin. (luckily, I personally won't have to find out... thank God that I love women.)


What really bothers me, though, is the arguments that go on between the denominations of Christianity. It is completely un-necessary, and nearly stopped me from having faith right at the very beginning. My mom, who is catholic, went to a protestant Easter service one. When she told the priest from her church about it, he would not forgive her for going. That was absolute bull crap IMO. As I looked further, I found many complaints going on about which branch of the church was 'right', and it really ticked me off. Luckily, I finally found a church that was open and accepting and started my long journey to a better life.

So, anyway, that's my post about different interpretations of the Bible. I know that lots of you have different opinions, so by all means let's hear em' and get a good debate going!

Originally posted by cjd

What really bothers me, though, is the arguments that go on between the denominations of Christianity. It is completely un-necessary, and nearly stopped me from having faith right at the very beginning.

If we could change that, the foundation of the Earth would crumble under the work of the Holy Spirit. Good discussion, I am enjoying reading!

By the way, the site is officially active now: http://www.bbcmarbury.com/Sermons.htm

Well, I'm having one of my relapse moments. I've had a horrible poison ivy infection for the last three days, and haven't gotten a wink of sleep because of how badly it itches. My arms are swollen almost stiff, my eyes are puffed up, and only 4 out of my 10 fingers are working. Plus, it is spreading and getting worse, to the point that I have actually considered cutting the damn things off to get rid of it.

I know that God has some reason for this, but it is impossible for me to not be a little angry. One part of me quietly sits, praying against hope that it will heal in time for my chorus concert on Friday and knowing that there is some purpose for this, while the other side is really pissed off, and asking "What the hell were you thinking when you created poison ivy?"

These doubts spring up almost whenever something happens to me, and I would really like some guidance. I am sick of this, and it really isn't fair.

^Believe me, you don't want to 'cut the damn things off'. My best friend, who happens to be an amputee, can tell you that.

You really need to have more faith. If a simple poison ivy rash causes you to curse God, then you have almost no faith. I would reccommend that you read the book of Job, from the Old Testament. It has a very good lesson.

Look at what Hes blessed you with rather than your annoyances of the moment. When I have a hard day or even a hard week I can always look to what He has given me and it always, always outweighs the current moment. Heck, even if a family member died that you dearly loved at least you were blessed to have them in your life!


Selflessness, not selfishness. Ive got a really, really bad blister on my heel right now that nearly prevents me from walking it hurts so bad but thats my own doing, not Gods. What do I learn from it? Put a pad in the back of my shoe so it stops.

For you, you should learn about the outdoors and what you grab and touch. I dont completely remember all the poisenous plants but I just avoid plants in general. If I have too, I try to use gloves.