2007 WWS/CC.COM NoLimits Tournament

Well in that case there should be a round where you cannot hand build.

Fair's fair.

Besides, there goes half of the competitors.

EDIT: OK.....1/5 of the competitors..

there are more competitiors that cannot use the programs

Wait, what?! Why can't competitors decide their own means to an end? I'm sorry, but I cannot hand-build worth crap in NL...I need to input numbers somewhere. Though I guess if worse comes to worse and you really do require "hand-built tracks" then I will just reverse engineer the bezier curves I want and throw the numbers into the nodes/control points, but that would take a lot longer!

In any case, I just don't see how doing either one provides a noticeable advantage. Just my opinion, but everyone ought to be free to choose their design method.

How bout you keep it the same as last year so people can build the way they want to build...This way is stupid. sorry.

Smells like discrimination lol [;)] That rule would be [r] tbh

Originally posted by gazag

there are more competitiors that cannot use the programs

You're just miffed because you can't use them [;)]

Let's face it, if you block one form of design, you have to be prepared to block another. Otherwise it's unjust. I think you would lose a high proportion of the builders if you go ahead with this and at the end of the day the winner's track would just not be as good.

If some of the competitors don't know how to use the tools, then obviously, they cannot use them. But if the tool-users can't hand-build, then obviously, they're not going to do that.

Taking away one side isn't a good answer, like what alton_ said.

[Oscar]

don't you worry kiddos, we here always have a solution to your problems [:)]

One word for those who always use tools:

Learn!

it's not hard to hand build...if anything I find it harder to use tools I.E. AHG. Sure taking away tools would give hand builders more of an advantange, but you don't need to take away all the tool, maybe take away the strongest (Bad suggestion, braces for reponses)

Count me in [;)]

[coolbeans326]

Don't make excuses tools are as much available to you as they are to any one else. If you want your rides to be of the same quality, then learn how to use the tools.

Originally posted by alton_





Let's face it, if you block one form of design, you have to be prepared to block another. Otherwise it's unjust. I think you would lose a high proportion of the builders if you go ahead with this and at the end of the day the winner's track would just not be as good.

Its not injust... Just because you are a new age builder and were 'brought up' using only elementary is your fault. The game was designed for you to use ITS building system. I think everybody should know how to do that before they go onto other things... If you ask me, it is Unjust to let people use elementary at all. I still think of it as kindof cheating. But I dont want to get into a discussion about that.

^Well Elementry is the only tool I use, and I only use it for 2 things...barrel rolls and helixes. It's not cheating as some one on the forums made clear.

Yeah, i agree with SFMM homie. Power to the hand-builders! [:D]

And it looks like WWS's got something up his sleeve anyways...[;)]

Sorry...hand-building is the only way I can go. I haven't completely mastered pulling numbers and formulas out of a hat to make a good design. Heck, I haven't completely mastered making a good design. I'm saying that I can't participate if hand-building becomes restricted during one of the rounds because we had to restrict Elementary on a different one...I agree with the people that say we deserve the freedom of method[approve]

Originally posted by SFMM homie

Originally posted by alton_





Let's face it, if you block one form of design, you have to be prepared to block another. Otherwise it's unjust. I think you would lose a high proportion of the builders if you go ahead with this and at the end of the day the winner's track would just not be as good.

Its not injust... Just because you are a new age builder and were 'brought up' using only elementary is your fault.

Don't say i have only ever toolbuilt.

http://www.nolimitsdevcenter.net/p2490

Originally posted by coolbeans326

Don't make excuses tools are as much available to you as they are to any one else.

Not true AT ALL. Elementary, AHG, etc are only available for Windows systems. Mac users will have to hand-build regardless of whether or not the tools are allowed.

If the tools are REQUIRED for a round, then only Windows users will advance.

I've gotta agree with other posters before me. Let the folks build with whatever method they prefer. I thought the whole idea was to end up with the best possible track. People will build better using the stuff they usually use.

Completely stupid to restrict the use of Elementary at all. It's available to almost everyone, everyone with a PC atleast, and if you don't have a PC you can still handbuild. You're taking away some peoples' advantage by restricting the use of Elementary, which is 100% unfair. Elem. is a VERY easy program to use, and ofcourse difficult to completely master. Point is though, if you don't use it because you don't think you can, then that's just too bad.

Horrible decision to restrict it. C'mon, lets have a fair competition here. Howbout judging the quality of the ride instead of discriminating against the building technique because the judge happens to like handbuilding better.

Anyways, gazag, did you see my proposal a few pages back? I wasn't joking, I'd like you to consider.

I'm in! [^]

Originally posted by minicoopertx

I've gotta agree with other posters before me. Let the folks build with whatever method they prefer. I thought the whole idea was to end up with the best possible track. People will build better using the stuff they usually use.

Yeah, that would obviously be best, but the issue is for round 2 elem. and hand builders would have to create a track together, which would most likely end up in some sort of mess.

Tools are the only way to build a realistic track, and that is known. All designers use formulas to design their tracks, they don't sit there tweaking bezier nodes all day long. Sure theirs are much more advanced than the ones we use, but it's still a bunch closer than hand building.

The problem with hand building is, you make your woodies too smooth, and your steel tracks to imprecise. All those GCIs, CCIs, and even some GGs made by hand are way too smooth in transitions. Some of you have to realize that CCI never made a smooth, flowing transition in their history, and that GCIs use strategically placed "no-leads" to catch riders off guard. And there are a few places on both Voyage and Hades where no leads were used. And I know for a fact, that it's a blow to the handbuilding system to try and create a smooth element without some sort of flowing transition from the last one. It ends up looking very sloppy.

Now for the steel rides, you just can't match the precision. Even when you do use the AHG in an attempt to eliminate lateral forces, the majority of handbuilders shape their tracks unrealistically enough that they still end up with .5, .6 lats in the middle of a turn. With the exception of some people like Real and Cactus22-1, the majority of handbuilders have this problem. With the new FVDs, elementary users can limit their entire track to at most like .3 on one occasion.

If I get paired up with a handbuilder, I honestly don't care as long as they don't object to me using elementary for my parts, and the AHG and maybe the smoother on their parts.

Its not injust... Just because you are a new age builder and were 'brought up' using only elementary is your fault. The game was designed for you to use ITS building system. I think everybody should know how to do that before they go onto other things... If you ask me, it is Unjust to let people use elementary at all. I still think of it as kindof cheating. But I dont want to get into a discussion about that.

What do you mean we aren't using the game's building system. You could in theory sit around for countless hours trying to smooth a turn with segments spaced by 1.5m, then save that as an element, and you'd accomplish the exact same thing as elementary does. But, that'd be stupid because you could easily do the exact same thing in less than a minute with elementary.


If you restrict against elementary usage, it's prejudice against intelligence. We've figured out how to accomplish the exact same thing, more precisely, and in less time.

If I got paired with someone in round 2 who had a totally different style than me for building, I could STILL come up with a way to work it out.

Maybe one of us is good at designing a layout, the other is good at supports. Maybe one hand-builds the basic track, then the other uses tools to tweak it.
Maybe one builds the track, the other smooths it, the first adds supports to the smooth track, then the second picks it up and does some terrain or 3DS work.

It can be done.

Everyone will probably already know I'm one of those people who don't like to use the new tools and stick to what I know best : Hand building.

I have no objections with people using the tools. For example, what are you judging here gazag? The way the ride was built or the end result?

The thing is, you ask a non-tooler to make a ride with the new Force Vector Design formula and you would get nothing.

You ask a tooler from the start to hand build a track and it would be as good as some newbies track.

On another note. I would like to see how miserably the toolers fail at hand crafting a track the good ole way. [:P]

^ It's not that hard, we were all handbuilders before we started using elementary.