2007 WWS/CC.COM NoLimits Tournament

I really have a problem with forbidding or requireing tools, because I think it's impossible to enforce. Can you PROVE that someone used a tool to make a turn or a loop? Can you prove they didn't? If you can't enforce a rule, why have it at all?

I'd rather have a contest full of incredible entries rather than one where everyone is looking to play "gotcha" and pick out rules violations.

Originally posted by coasterguy77

Originally posted by minicoopertx

I've gotta agree with other posters before me. Let the folks build with whatever method they prefer. I thought the whole idea was to end up with the best possible track. People will build better using the stuff they usually use.

Yeah, that would obviously be best, but the issue is for round 2 elem. and hand builders would have to create a track together, which would most likely end up in some sort of mess.

That is in noway true. Build me an element and I could easily match anything onto it.



^ Good point there. I could just AHG with say 7-8m segments and other than the fact that they're all close to evenly spaced there would be now way to tell. Though the best handbuilders all know to keep there segments to about equal length.

^ It's not that hard, we were all handbuilders before we started using elementary.

Yeah, it was obviously too hard for you anyway.

There's something about a hand crafted ride I like more. I dunno, it just feels like it's meant too. Like, when you spent a long time on perfecting the shaping on this new element of yours, when you ride it in the sim you ride it with pride.

When I do the same with the elementry, you feel like you've not done anything.

Well, that's my view anyway.

point 1, yes i can use the elementry but decide not to

point 2, i never did say that all the contests you would be able not to use tools

point 3, i find the input of numbers into a program defets the object of building a coaster in nolimits

point 4, if your a truly good builder you shouldent need elementry

point 5, you'll find that mac users and most others cannot use the elementry

point 6, this makes it fair on the majority of those who cannot use the elementory

point 7, it is very easy to find out whos using elementory by breaking the track down

but if there is going to be this much trouble forget it

Good [:)]

Originally posted by IamtheInterpol

One word for those who always use tools:

Learn!

it's not hard to hand build...if anything I find it harder to use tools I.E. AHG. Sure taking away tools would give hand builders more of an advantange, but you don't need to take away all the tool, maybe take away the strongest (Bad suggestion, braces for reponses)

One word for all you hand-builders:

Learn!

I can hand build and use elementary. It isn't hard to use both. I'll even switch in and out of it. So really, take out tools. I can do it. Take out hand-building. I can still do it.

This fight of tools vs. no tools is rediculous. Use what you feel is best for you. Not everybody is going to have the same building style. I've seen hand built coasters toss the crap out of a tooled coaster and vise versa. The advantage is what you make of it. If your hand built track isn't good enough to beat a tooled track, tough luck. Get over it.

Gazag, who's your favorite NL designer right now?

^? What is that going to say to us....

Well, props to Jimmy. What wonderful points you've just cleared, man! I have to say this has lightened me up a good amount on my views to this dispute. If the case be you match up with your opposite in round two, wouldn't that make it a bit more interesting or fun.

I'd have to say, without pointing fingers there are designers taking part in this tourney just in it for the competition. I myself, being incapable of designing like a professional, cannot be so serious. I am taking this as my first tournament to be a fun experience, and maybe next year round I'll get a little more tough about it. But for now, my greatest opinion on the tooler/handbuilder topic is that we should not block anyone from designing the way they have been learning their entire designing life. But we also should not get picky about who we end up with during Round Two. If you end up with your opposite in method-building, get over it. Learn to work together past the differences, which, again, may possibly make the experience all the more interesting and fun.

The bottom line, gazag, is that it's your contest and you set the rules. The rest of us have the option to either participate or not. If we do, we play by the rules, even if we don't agree with them. Simple as that.

A good example of this debate. You need to look for a new table. You have two choices :

1 : You can buy a table built by a computer within minutes. All perfect and all, but it's mass produced so the value is decreased and it's not worth a lot any more.

2 : You can go to an experienced carpenter who will spend good money on getting solid wood (Oak) and crafting the table for you. I personally feel you would appreciate it a lot more. That's to all of you.

Conclusion : Hand crafted tracks are far more appreciated.

^

I always try to use the finest Oak on my deisngs

ok no its not my contest its for the prosperity of wws.com

i am a staff member and im here to keep the members of this site happy.

and as for my favorite designer its got to be myself cuz my tracks are just sweet but no one seems to realise it

one things for shure matt wont win for showing me a cartain video over msn that im just not prepared to even discuss. (joking mate, ll is fair in this comp)

EDIT: ignore what i said. I was too slow replying

haha Gazag. I've ruined my chances.

Matt, you must not have seen DCs's recreation of Boss. Or maybe you'd like to challenge him and make a better version by hand. I wouldn't recomend that though.

Ug...i've been attempting to learn elementary again, and it just bores be to tears. To me, it just takes the point out of NoLimits. So it'll always be hand-building for me [:D]

And it doesn't say that either building method's gonna be banned for round 2, so I figure that everyone'll still be able to do both.

A ride in No Limits is like a car. The old cars (hand-built tracks) are full of charisma and wonderful to behold, but taking care of them can be quite a hassle. On the contrary, new cars (tool-used tracks) are safer, more reliable, and can be easier to manage, but can get kind of boring. However, there are a few cars/tracks) of both generations that really shine. Compare a Delahaye to a Pagani Zonda. It is just a matter of personal taste.

Even though that analogy may not be the best, I believe builders from both perspectives should really show what could be done in this contest. Tools can make technically perfect tracks, but can fall short of character. Hand-built tracks can have character, but can fall short of technique. But if this rule does pull through, it would have been a better idea to give us a heads up before all of the people signed up.

Originally posted by Matt

A good example of this debate. You need to look for a new table. You have two choices :

1 : You can buy a table built by a computer within minutes. All perfect and all, but it's mass produced so the value is decreased and it's not worth a lot any more.

2 : You can go to an experienced carpenter who will spend good money on getting solid wood (Oak) and crafting the table for you. I personally feel you would appreciate it a lot more. That's to all of you.

Conclusion : Hand crafted tracks are far more appreciated.

Sorry, but that's a crappy example. We're ALL using oak. It's not about the material, it's about the building process.

Here's how to make that scenario closer to what we're talking about:

You've got carpenters with a WIDE range of skill who are all trying to make you a table based on certain criteria you've set. Some of them have nifty computer-aided saws and such to make their tables look better. Others don't have these tools, but have great skill. Still others use the tools for some parts of the table building process (like making the top perfectly round) but hand-build the rest (like putting the legs on or doing an inlaid wood design).

You just want a nice table. Whether the table was completely done with fancy tools, whether it was completely handmade, or whether it was something in between, you could care less. What you want is a NICE TABLE. Why not let each carpenter decide how best to give you the table you want?

Another thing to consider: hand-building takes a LOT more time to produce a good track. There will be times when a really good designer will have to turn in a crap track simply because his/her life was crazy for several days during that round and ran out of time. I'd rather see the option of using tools be available for those who need it and get better tracks in the end.

I'm on a mac, so I don't have the tools anyway. I'd stand a better chance in the contest if tools weren't allowed, thereby forcing folks who don't normally hand-build to do it that way.
That doesn't make it fair, though. I'd rather let our creativity be the deciding factor moreso than the ability to make a smooth turn. I'll take a really inventive, original, bumpy track over a butter-smooth boring track any day!

I hear all of this talk about elementary tracks being perfect. BS. I've seen few elementary tracks that were truly perfect. And I have seen many instances where hand-built tracks are better.

I also hear all of this talk about how much more "character" or "flow" hand-built tracks have. Again, BS. I've seen elementary coasters that are straight, linear, and boring, as I have also seen hand-built tracks that are straight, linear, and boring. On the other hand, I've seen a good few elementary coasters that have very nice flow, originality, and are techincally well built; right along with hand-built coasters that have just the same qualities.

My point everybody is just skimming over is that it doesn't matter what method you use, it matters how good you are. The best phrase ever created, "sh!t in, sh!t out." It's what you put into it that makes what comes out good or not. Period.

hand-building takes a LOT more time to produce a good track.

Wrong!

That's my last word on the subject. Enjoy squabbling over what's better.

You know, there's something called a quote button...

[coolbeans326]

My 2 cents.

Look at the overall track to make your decisions. Different building methods have different flaws. Besides, IMO, its about the final product anyways. I don't go to a theme park and say, "Oh geez, I hates this ride because they used computers to help them design the product." No, I'm just looking for the experience and enjoying whats there. I look at the product as a whole and the feelings I get from the experience. Like Silver Bullet I think, hmm.. those g's were relatively week and as a whole did nothing for me. Then I think about Kraken and I think, "Well I enjoyed this ride and I blacked out several times and it made my legs tingle. I like. A+."

Its kind of like the wood vs steel coaster debate. When in reality its not really the material, its what you make of it. As we have seen, Intamin can make their wooden roller coasters like steel coasters. And you can also find some steel coasters that can ride like a wooden roller coaster.

So what I'm saying is it shouldn't matter how some one designs their rides. They each have their own advantages. I think hand building gives you more creativity with the way the shape of the track, although this also process other problems such as pumping. But then you get into the elementary tracks, and unless you truly understand it, your layouts maybe technically perfect, but the experience of the ride is blah and unoriginal.

So I think both should be allowed. For as I stated previously they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Also note that if we thought hmm... well I don't want to switch from formulas written out by hand to computed aided designs, then we wouldn't have ever seen any of the rides that we have today. NL should be about progress and moving forward to designing w/e our minds can conceive. Not throwing a fit just because you don't want to switch to a different design style, therefore everyone has to conform to one thing. It shouldn't matter. Just build the ride the way you want it built, what ever means possible, and which ever way is the most fun for you. After all the key points about this site and the sim is about having fun and enjoying yourself.

Originally posted by Iron Man

I hear all of this talk about elementary tracks being perfect. BS. I've seen few elementary tracks that were truly perfect. And I have seen many instances where hand-built tracks are better.

I also hear all of this talk about how much more "character" or "flow" hand-built tracks have. Again, BS. I've seen elementary coasters that are straight, linear, and boring, as I have also seen hand-built tracks that are straight, linear, and boring. On the other hand, I've seen a good few elementary coasters that have very nice flow, originality, and are techincally well built; right along with hand-built coasters that have just the same qualities.

My point everybody is just skimming over is that it doesn't matter what method you use, it matters how good you are. The best phrase ever created, "sh!t in, sh!t out." It's what you put into it that makes what comes out good or not. Period.

Totally agree. Elementary or hand building doesn't make a track perfect. Even if it is technically, 100% perfect, it still needs to be creative and exciting to truely make it a good coaster. Some hand built rides by CJD or Real can totally kick some elementary ass, and vice versa.

Damn, I can't keep up with this topic.

lets just get these last 9 spaces filled guys and i might be nice and give you lot a bit more time on the first cosater ok guys and gals

Originally posted by coolbeans326

Well I enjoyed this ride and I blacked out several times and it made my legs tingle.

Pansy. [:P]