Betrayal - Update

[A7]

I've been on a bad track slump for the past few weeks, months (however long it's been since Rapture). So I've decided to force my way out of it! I tried making a pre-lift piece for a woodie and I think it turned out alright. I'm using the 6 car trains because I think they will suit my track better. I do not know exactly what kind of layout is yet to be built, out-and-back, twister, whatever. Any ideas for lift angle? I was thinking about 30-35 degrees. Well, theres 10 images below to see what I'm dealing with. Supports are temporary auto supports on a copy of the original track. I turned them on for a visual of height. Another thing is that I do not know if I am doing steel structure or wood. That is yet to be decided upon which style of layout I am doing. One last thing, like always, hand-built then heartlined / 3ds. circle is used to help deal with pumping.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed1.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed2.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed3.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed4.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed5.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed6.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed7.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed8.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayed9.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayed10.jpg

[edit]

Okay, I'm just over mid-course now. I could finish it up or turn around for a double out-and-back. I still have enough speed I think, about 45 mph to work with. Anyways I'm done for today, I'll work on it more tomorrow. Oh, What is the highest positive g's a steel structure/wooden coaster could/would realistically pull? Is 5 g's to much for a steel structure to handle?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayed11.png

I myself am a huge fan of a nice drop-out. You have a decent one, nothing much more than a swerve in there though. Whatever the case, you need to make sure that you go back to the supports on it and add cross-beams. Those brittle L-Beams won't hold in such little quantity.

5.0 Gs is too much for a woodie. Hands down. In complete disregard of whatever structure you have, 5.0 Gs is just not suitable for a wooden to execute.

Also, that layout looks alot like the woodie you made a while ago. Roar I think it was called? Anyway, are you sure you don't want to move away from a layout of just hills and a turnaround similar to one in which you've already done?

May I suggest calling it Betrayal instead of Betrayed? Just sounds better.

Also it'd be cool to put a river here, so it looks like there is a purpose for it to stray off from the layout like that. I dont like when there are random outstretches in tracks.



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[A7]

Originally posted by GerstlCrazy

I myself am a huge fan of a nice drop-out. You have a decent one, nothing much more than a swerve in there though. Whatever the case, you need to make sure that you go back to the supports on it and add cross-beams. Those brittle L-Beams won't hold in such little quantity.

5.0 Gs is too much for a woodie. Hands down. In complete disregard of whatever structure you have, 5.0 Gs is just not suitable for a wooden to execute.

Also, that layout looks alot like the woodie you made a while ago. Roar I think it was called? Anyway, are you sure you don't want to move away from a layout of just hills and a turnaround similar to one in which you've already done?

Thats what I was afraid to hear. I need to make a bigger radius on the two dips in the turn-around. As for being like Roar? Ahh, it may just be hills turnaround hill but it is a specific, structured, type I should say. I love out-and-back coasters, a simple design yes, very fun though and a good layout to practice with. Hill styles, new ways to 'turn around', and much other things can be learned and experimented with. Like I said before too, " I've been on a bad track slump" and I need something like this to screw my head on right. Almost like a review really.

As for SFMM homie, I like the name to so I am changing it! A second thing, the river is a good idea and will most likely use it if I don't change the turn-around. Not until I finish trackwork though. It'll be a small extra delay for the name change but should be worth it. Renaming a few textures, editing the cartexture, environment file locations and others.

[edit]

Alright I lied, I wasn't done for the night. The high positive g's in the turn-around are not as high as before. Still pushing it but not as high. At least they aren't yellow g's anymore. So, I decided I am doing a long layout. I'm at 3,300 feet of track right now and I decided it would be a good/realistic idea if I pulled up into a mcbr. The first hill is just about 125 feet and the mcbr is at 70 feet. I should be able to generate enough speed for a few more air hills and then a finale twister section. Along with changing the name of the ride, I went back to cartextures and I decided a different train style would be more appropriate. I think they look cooler too. Well, here are some pics; tell me what ya think.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal1.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal2.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal3.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal4.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal5.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal6.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal7.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal8.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal9.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal10.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal11.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal12.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal13.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal14.jpg

Originally posted by SFMM homie

May I suggest calling it Betrayal instead of Betrayed? Just sounds better.

Also it'd be cool to put a river here, so it looks like there is a purpose for it to stray off from the layout like that. I dont like when there are random outstretches in tracks.



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Thats hardly an "outstretch" of track. Its a turn around and it can be done in almost any way it wants as long as it makes it back to the other track to complete the "turnaround" portion of the ride. I dont know where it says it has to turn around in a certain amount of time or, at a certain radius.

That means Voyages turn around is just pointless and incorrect. Same for a host of other rides I can think of.

[A7]

Okay, well if in fact it was an "outstretch" it is not so much anymore. I need some help now though. I only have 35 mph to get back to the station. http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal2.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal3.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal4.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal5.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal6.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal7.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal8.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... rayal9.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal10.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal11.jpg

[edit]

Sorry for clogging the page with so many pics [:(!]
I'm still stuck, I'm thinking a slanted launch (upward) to 45 mph over a hill. Not steep though, maybe 20 degrees up, 45 down. Then a series of hills and twister finale?

No launch on a woodie!

You could lift the track WAY high up and then build some drops long, steep drops the exceed the first drop so you can pick up some speed for the finale.

That's the only thing I can think of doing that would keep it realistic.

Launch? On a woodie? can it be done? I don't know, but I'm inclined to say no. Maybe if you elevated the track and added some terrain, you could get some nice drops into trenches or tunnels. Just an idea.

And, as always, if you need any graphic design, you know who to call!

Uhh, Why is this so twisty? And Heartlined??? You've let me down

I'm confused as to why you're bringing the track back around for a double out-back just to find you're xTremely short on pacing to get back, and then think about launching a wooden roller coaster?

My best suggestion is to pull the station WAY the hell back and make the drop a lift-top turnaround type thing. Ya dig?

2nd lifts aren't that bad, but you'd better be prepared to add some thrills after it.

[A7]

ZOOZ3R/Halo364: Elevating the track is not to bad an idea but I already lined it up directly next to other track/soon to be supports. Should I stray to the right and then do some dips/then go left? Take a look back to remember something, the station is already quite high. That means I'm still going to need some extra speed somehow to get back up there.

SFFM homie: Yes there is some twisty, I need to stay from the classic u-turn somehow. Besides, twisty is a fun mix for an out-and-back. As for the heartlined part, Up to the MCBR is, yes. After, to be heartlined also. Lateral forces in and out of transitions are simply uncomfortable. If I remember correctly, the entrance to the first turnaround pulled 1.6 laterals where now its more like 0.8 which is a big difference for being realistic. Besides, lots of new age wooden roller coasters are heartlined. "You've let me down" is a bit harsh of a statement but it comes from your taste and preferred style so I won't argue with it. If sometime I do make an older style coaster I will definitely try to build around the need to rely on a heartline for lower lats.

GerstlCrazy: Not a bad idea, I may try it tonight/tomorrow and see if it works out.

CalawayPark: I Could but I don't think the coaster should be too much longer anyways.

Make a big grand twisty finale after elevating the track.

And then, if you don't mind, you could put another station at the bottom of the finale and then have a lift that leads to the original station. With this, you could create a better Riders/Hour count...

lol, "You've let me down" is actually the nice way of saying "I think you should not unheartline this ride, put way less banking, make it smaller, slow it down, and change to PTC's, and make it realistic"

[A7]

Originally posted by Z00Z3R

Make a big grand twisty finale after elevating the track.

And then, if you don't mind, you could put another station at the bottom of the finale and then have a lift that leads to the original station. With this, you could create a better Riders/Hour count...

Yet another possibility. Here is what I'm going to try, in order.

* Delete lift/station
* Raise track
* Save layout / element
* Rebuild station/lift in new location
* Turn at top of lift
* Insert element
* Terraform a bit
* Double down under ground - near station height
* (tunnel possibly by Halo364)
* Come out of ground somewhere
* Twisty
* Brake / align to station / Brake
* Connect

SFFM homie: ahahaha if you remember I had that train style. I changed it for the twistyness (not a word). A: Unheartline the ride is not going to do much for me. B: It is only banked at 30 degrees (that segment). C: Small would be more positives and I already had a positive problem on that section, remember 5 g's! D: Slowing it down anymore would make it not complete the course. E: What part isn't realistic?

Originally posted by Real


Thats hardly an "outstretch" of track. Its a turn around and it can be done in almost any way it wants as long as it makes it back to the other track to complete the "turnaround" portion of the ride. I dont know where it says it has to turn around in a certain amount of time or, at a certain radius.

That means Voyages turn around is just pointless and incorrect. Same for a host of other rides I can think of.

Yikes, All I said was I didnt like it very much. I didnt say it was "pointless and incorrect". I actually would like it if it had a nice little river, which I suggested. Chillax.

^To CP- I find the excessive banking unrealistic, also the shaping on the hills, both things would be seen only on an intamin woodie MAYBE. If you say "well I need the banking and heartlining to control the lats" well thats fine, just next time try to design it so it wont need as much banking. Look at some of my newer woodies.

Nice try difusing your comment.

[A7]

I have to say, there are way to many styles when it comes to designing a coaster. Yes, everybody knew that but oh well. So, I just replaced all my old images on this thread with links because it was becoming inconvenient to navigate and was, 'being retarded'. In the process of doing my changes, I realized it would be easier to enlarge the lift hill 25% and then keep the regular layout in proportion and then I had the extra space at the bottom! Three new pics, I got the track connected and I have started some terraforming. Those who have noticed, I usually don't terraform my tracks so it may not be to good. I also started 'digging' holes for what I hope, future tunnels. Oh, would it be better to support and then tunnel or tunnel and then support? I think it might be easier to support around/on 3ds than have the 3ds built around the supports. To clear up any confusion, the last pic would not be tunneled, one other thing, the track-track clearance is barely cleared, I tunnel tested it. Who was it that said they might be up for the job of 3ds tunnels?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal12.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal13.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal14.jpg

[edit]

I've worked on some de-pumping today. There are still some pumps but it is not too bad. You can notice the turn on the left is stretched out a little. Thats on purpose because it gives the feel I want when riding. When more circular that piece looked and felt awkward when riding.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal16.jpg

[edit]

Hmm, the ending looks right and rides right but it isn't as forceful as I intended according to the g's.

[edit]

Alright, going to bed now because it's about 2:45 AM. This is just one of those small updates. Since my last edit to this over sized post, I decided a wooden structure, not steel. Along with that I added a basic auto-support / Cathedral - stair step structure. From there I have been adding customs along the track as well as deleting and moving some of the auto-supports. I have definitely not finished supporting, more have just started. For now I have one screenshot to show you. It's a cool angle in my opinion.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal17.png

[edit]

Just had to fix some typos [:D]

[edit]

I've finished up some light lateral bracing on the pre-lift section. I probably won't do anymore today.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal18.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal19.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal20.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal21.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal22.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal23.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal24.png
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ayal25.png

[edit]

I've run into a small problem while timing trains. We all know how NoLimits has little bugs such as the terraform/auto-support problem, launch speed variations, things like that. Well I have run into a similar one of those. Entering the MCBR I have had speeds between 1 and 18 mph. Once, the train even stalled half on the brake and half off. Another time I got a roll back! For this situation, would it be okay to place a small lift right before the brake to help it get up on a slow run? Can that be done or is it out of reason and realism. You may be wondering why there is such a big variation, reason being is the track is simply long, almost 6,200 feet total length! Since the problem is - mid course - About 3,000 feet of track is there for NoLimits to calculate differently each ride.

I'd suggest lowering it even if it means fixing some of the track around it.. However, even though a lift is kind of realistic, I would only do so as a last resort. And when I say last resort, I mean you've tried everything else.

[A7]

Ehh, I've already tried lowering it 5 feet. I still had a few rollbacks today. The train is 12 cars so if it is a slow run, the second half of the train seams to pull it backward even though the MCBR is slanted downward/forward (like it should be). I think I'll just raise it back and add a small lift piece. The height may not seam like a lot but the last 3,000 or so feet of track lacks further in pace due to the enormous 5 foot difference. Even though NoLimits is the most 'realistic' roller coaster simulation, the physics seam to be off somewhere. That, or the fog is slowing down the trains? Which ever the reason, I have already started working on supports in the area. If you were wondering, those are real frame rates. I usually average 35-40 frames when riding but on this coaster, for some reason, different angles give big differences in frames per second. One time I 'flew' all the way up and looked out and managed 50 frames lol. It probably has something to do with NoLimits on a laptop, or I could blame it on all the wood [;)]

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 853000.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 005001.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 106002.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 117003.jpg

looks hawt

[A7]

An update before I go to bed, school in the morning Woot Woot! Don't we all love high school.... Anyways, today I just did some more work on the lift hill. Yes, I am slow when it comes to supports. They usually turn out good though and are worth the extra time and effort. One thing which I don't know if you guys will like is that the lift supports are wider than normal. I personally think they look cool but if someone pulls a random technical problem with them than I will make them less wide. Overall, I have a few more support fixes and then to finish off the top. In some of the below pictures supports may seem closer than they actually are, the same illusion when riding. I've made sure it passes the tunnel test. The first picture is a quickly put together promo picture just because its fairly late and I was bored. What do you think about "the path not taken" wording in it? If you don't like it, what should it say? Again, it was just a quick think, and put together.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... -Promo.png

As for the rest of the pictures;

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... Hill-1.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-11.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-12.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-13.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-14.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-15.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-16.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-17.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-18.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ill-19.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ll-110.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ll-111.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ll-112.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... ll-113.jpg

[edit]

Well, I had a half day at school! I topped off the lift hill supports. The placement of the next supports have been indicated in the below pics with red lines.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 241000.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 252001.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 302002.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 424005.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 459009.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 747011.jpg

[edit]

It's been a few days since I've updated. I worked more on the lift hill, yes still. I've just started working on the supports for the piece that is under the lift. Connecting, moving, deleting, adding supports to fit correctly. So, one picture for the night.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... trayal.png

[edit]

Okay, it's been a while so I decided it was about time for another update. I hate how slow I am with wooden supports! Anyways I finished the first hill supports and have started working on the surrounding segments. No update is good without pictures;

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-071.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-072.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-073.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-074.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-075.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-076.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-077.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 11-078.jpg

[edit]

Supports still creeping along..

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-1.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-2.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-3.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-4.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-5.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-6.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-7.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-8.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... 4-07-9.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240 ... -07-10.jpg

Your best yet, cp!

[A7]

Playing around with the 1.7 update for NoLimits, I decided to make a short video as a sort of preview/promo. I'm sure after watching you will probably wish I gave you more!

Format: MPEG-4 Video, AAC Stereo
Length: 45 seconds
W/H: 704 x 480
Size: 32.72 MB
Host: http://www.blip.tv/

I recommend downloading instead of trying to stream the video.
Video URL: http://blip.tv/file/get/Cpsoad-Betrayal ... eo1849.mp4


[edit]


It's been a while again, yet another little update.. In the last picture, turn-around, what style of supports do you think I should go with? I don't thing the box style I've been using so far would look good. Someone possibly post a real(coaster) picture of what you think it should look like?

i cant see all the photos! when i click a link, it says "Page Not Found" [:O][:(]