Supports

[Coasterkidmwm]

This tool would come in handy in certain situations. Stop giving indi so much crap for it.

Originally posted by TheArchitect

i cant believe this is happening.

Yes supports are boring and tedious, but man are you happy with the result! Same with smoothing, its painful to do, heartlining, also painful.

But with everything, most people (if done properly) are happy with the results. Knowing they put in the effort, and pulled it off.

But no, lazy idiots that humans are have to make tools.

Its too boring smoothing, lets geek it out and build a smoother.
Oh, painful heartlining, lets make a AHG.
now POOR ME, lets make a supporter.

Get a LIFE people, nothing comes easy, sometimes you have to WORK for it!

Tool users still work hard for their rides, they just generally turn out better.

[TheArchitect]

i'm speaking in general, the whole thing with tools.
Admitidly, it would be helpful, and having the option would be a generous gift from indi.
I have no problem with him, or anyone who makes tools. Having the option to use it is a great gift from tool developers.

I just wish people would stop crying about everything and make an effort in life.

^That's like saying that engineering would be more pure if we went back to the slide rule days, frankly. I kind of like computers, thanks. We can now analyze problems that would have been unthinkable a couple decades back, and without spending (ie wasting) hours doing hand calculations. Having spent lots of time in CAD/CAM software and the like, NL can really make me angry, especially with supports. My point is thus: there is a difference between so-called "laziness" and efficiency. I don't have the time to waste by not using tools, and the only reason I won't do anything by hand unless I have to is simply because math is always the answer in my mind!

Originally posted by TheArchitect

i cant believe this is happening.

Yes supports are boring and tedious, but man are you happy with the result! Same with smoothing, its painful to do, heartlining, also painful.

But with everything, most people (if done properly) are happy with the results. Knowing they put in the effort, and pulled it off.

But no, lazy idiots that humans are have to make tools.

Its too boring smoothing, lets geek it out and build a smoother.
Oh, painful heartlining, lets make a AHG.
now POOR ME, lets make a supporter.

Get a LIFE people, nothing comes easy, sometimes you have to WORK for it!

You're my new best friend, Archy.

[TheArchitect]

thanks girstl.

And Kev, if you dont have time to waste with doing things by hand, what are you doing here. Also, NL is a hobby, not an engineering job, so it's OK to put down the calculator... if you wanna speak metaphorically.

Bassically, have fun, its why you got it. If you're so tight for time that you can barely make a ride by hand, you should re-think your life.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST LAZY BUILDERS?

[Kev]

I realize you're talking to the other Kev... I'm going to answer that anyway though. I prefer using the available tools because I AM an engineer. Building with tools just makes more sense to me because of it. And for what it's worth, it isn't any faster or easier (for me) than building by hand. And it also doesn't necessarily mean that my rides will be better than hand built rides either. Some of my higher rated rides on here and at coastersims were hand built.

It's just how I like to do things. I don't feel there's any set way to do it. I guess that's why they call it NO LIMITS. [;)]

Originally posted by TheArchitect

thanks girstl.

And Kev, if you dont have time to waste with doing things by hand, what are you doing here. Also, NL is a hobby, not an engineering job, so it's OK to put down the calculator... if you wanna speak metaphorically.

Bassically, have fun, its why you got it. If you're so tight for time that you can barely make a ride by hand, you should re-think your life.

My Geometry teacher makes an excellent point in saying "If what you're doing is working, then keep at it. If you fail at what you do, find another method..."

I think this is turning more into another Handbuilder vs. Tooler mini-battle. The main idea is sure, you can make a support program that makes it easier to support.

But you are lazy, and saying you're a professional engineer or wish to design professionally doesn't NEAR justify the use of that support program we're discussing (Kev, this isn't at you)...The real deal engineers would frown upon use of this. Very seldom are two support structures EXACTLY the same, and it's MUCH more professional to do SUPPORTS by hand.

So it's more professional to tool or formulatize a track, I hear that. It's not professional to build supports with any program. Those need to come from your hands.

There's nothing wrong with tooling a track, I guess. But even most toolers are smart enough to build supports by hand.

[Kev]

There are three support tools that I would like to see.

#1 - Something that would auto generate track connectors.
#2 - Something that would allow us to build and save our own prefabs.
#3 - An auto flanger that worked worth a damn.


Something that just did everything at the click of mouse... I don't really understand how that would work without some tweaking done to the supports afterward. I mean, how would the program know how you want it done? I know a couple or three people that have done it, but I still don't understand how.

Originally posted by GerstlCrazy

But you are lazy ...

it's MUCH more professional to do SUPPORTS by hand...

Those need to come from your hands...

I guess. But even most toolers are smart enough to build supports by hand.

OK. since the people who make the tools are so lazy, you try building a good tool. Right now. See how easy it is.

If indi successfully made a support duplicator, you wouldn't HAVE to use it! But there are people who would! Don't try and speak for everyone. Plus, when you say that "it is MUCH more professional to make supports by hand", and "supports NEED to come from your hands", you sound like those are set in stone! Try something new, for god's sake. Maybe you would like it!

Originally posted by Halo364

Originally posted by GerstlCrazy

But you are lazy ...

it's MUCH more professional to do SUPPORTS by hand...

Those need to come from your hands...

I guess. But even most toolers are smart enough to build supports by hand.

OK. since the people who make the tools are so lazy, you try building a good tool. Right now. See how easy it is.

Did I say I had anything against people who make the tools, or did I say I had something against the use of those tools?

I would not be mad at the person that came up with this tool, nor would I be mad at the people who use the tool. I would simply not understand their ethics...

[TheArchitect]

So as an engineer Kev, you can understand how happy you are with the work YOU'VE done, not some auto-generator.
I dont get how people think THEY banked a ride when they used the AHG, all they did was choose how they wanted it banked.

[Kev]

I am happy with the result of having my ideas show up on the computer screen. It doesn't really matter to me how it got there. My reason for liking the track tools is that it lets me attempt to do things exactly how I want them, similar to programs I use at work (mostly Autocad) to design different things that I have the machine shop build.

I'm in complete agreement with all of you that you should do things however is most fun. Just keep in mind that 'fun' can be different depending on who you ask.

Yeah, I certainly see your points; all I really wanted to add was that I am sick and tired of placing things by hand instead of picking a patterning scheme or the like to define support structures. Plus, I'd really like to be able to drag/drop/modify saved support algorithms. Otherwise NL is perfectly fine as is. I do it because it's way more fun than homework, not to say I don't spend 95% of my time on homework!

Basically, I agree with most of what you're saying and most of this wouldn't matter if school weren't eating my life right now!

How much you wanna bet real coaster designers don't place supports semi-arbitrarily by hand, just by how they look? I guarantee you computers do the vast majority of that work, and the rest of the support design is done with the help of tools to determine stresses etc.

So, building supports by hand in NL based on appearance is not the most "professional" way to do it. Some kind of tool, just like those seen with track construction in NL, would be the closest to real life. I 100% stand behind that statement too.

If you question someone's "ethics" for using such a program if it were to materialize, then I question your ethics for contradicting yourself, since you clearly use "woodmagic" for wooden coasters. That's the exact same thing.

We already have a bunch of tools for creating the track faster and better, and hardly anything for supports. (prefabs and woodmagic) I don't see what's wrong with copying and modifying a few large structures so that creating a structure for a 350ft lift hill can be slightly faster. But what we have now is nearly nothing, having to resort to odd methods to place large numbers of nodes at a time and then connect them. (Most other coaster sims around at least have some kind of basic copy-paste function) At the very least, some tools like splitting beams, duplicating nodes (i.e. 2 connected beams become 2 seperate beams), etc. would be welcome.

hey, i think that that would be a pretty cool program. People can still hand make things if they want. They dont have to use the program. Im not even sure how often i would use it, but hey, if i didnt want to spend forever doing supports, your program would be nice to have. Yeah, when you have time, you should try again. Im sure you can do it again. Just because a couple people said it was dumb doesnt mean that it is.
I say you go for it. If you still wanted to.

GerstlCrazy, I respect that you don't like things to be "easy", but consider the following: Copying would only really help with larger support structures. The detail work, which sets apart the good from the bad, would still be just as hard as ever.

And I used to complain about Elementary as well, but if you'd ever used it you'd find that shaping tracks that way is not really "the easy way out". Making a good track with Elementary takes almost as long as making one by hand, and just because the end result is almost technically prefect doesn't mean that the track will be fast, intense, fun, or original.