Another religious discussion (Tconwell)

I am still comfortable with my choice. However, if I turn out to be right, you cannot, and will not, be able to look God in the eye and tell him "I didn't know" (which is typical of this generation's mindset to blame someone else). Because yes, you were told.

It is written, "And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." (Mark 6:11)

But TJ, I dont believe in God, and that is my choice, just like believing is you're choice. If i find out i'm wrong after death, and have to look God in the eye, then i'd look at him quite comfortably, knowing that i, like you, chose to believe exactly what i want to believe, and do not regret a thing. Free will is the most beautiful thing about life itself, whether you be religious or not, and i find it impossible to believe that i'd ever regret living by my own beliefs and nature, just because it didnt fit with God's beliefs.

Anyway i think its pretty amazing how people can believe in religion so fully with no evidence at all. But i think its amazing how people can write the idea off straight away as well. Everyone amazes me, because everyone has their beliefs for a reason, and shouldnt that be the way it stays, rather than trying to change other peoples opinions to suit your own? My boyfriend believed God created the world until like 2 weeks ago when we watched a program on evolution one night... His opinions changed suddenly, but i hadnt forced him to believe what i believed, he just had a radical change of heart. Thats how things should be. Let people discover what they believe themselves, because they'll only believe something if they want too, and if they dont, they dont, no matter how hard you try.

If that scenario ever comes up, and a god asks me why I didn't believe in it, I will just say, "Sorry god, not enough evidence."

Keep in mind Tcon, you WERE told about Allah. You WERE told about Qwerty. You WERE told about Vishnu. Are you really prepared to take that risk? Well ... are you?

Does anyone pay attetion to what I write?

[Oscar]

You don't even pay attention to what you write. oops, I just paid attention! I demand a refund!

Originally posted by jpecool

But TJ, I dont believe in God, and that is my choice, just like believing is you're choice.

By the same logic, I could just as effectively say that I don't believe in oxygen. I cannot "see" it, nor hold it in my hand, so it must not be real. Right? I agree that freewill is wonderful, and so it has been written for each to choose my friend. I am not judging you, again, I simply shared my choice.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

Originally posted by Dragon Fly

If that scenario ever comes up, and a god asks me why I didn't believe in it, I will just say, "Sorry god, not enough evidence."

Let me know how that turns out ... well, you won't be able to let me know, but I am trying to be encouraging here.

Originally posted by Dragon Fly

Keep in mind Tcon, you WERE told about Allah. You WERE told about Qwerty. You WERE told about Vishnu. Are you really prepared to take that risk? Well ... are you?

Happily. I shall not deny Christ, no matter the cost. Questions?

Originally posted by CKidd

Does anyone pay attetion to what I write?

Do you really want an answer to this?

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by TConwell
By the same logic, I could just as effectively say that I don't believe in oxygen. I cannot "see" it, nor hold it in my hand, so it must not be real.

You can see it and hold it in your hand although I wouldn't recommend holding it in you hand because that would probably lead to hand issues. Lookie!

Originally posted by TConwell
I agree that freewill is wonderful, and so it has been written for each to choose my friend.

Yeah and you're choosing to continuously deny people happiness based on your religion.

Originally posted by TConwell
By the same logic, I could just as effectively say that I don't believe in oxygen. I cannot "see" it, nor hold it in my hand, so it must not be real. Right?

No. There is objectively verifiable evidence of oxygen. There is no objectively verifiable evidence of God. There is a difference.

Unless by chance you happen to have some objectively verifiable evidence, so far all you have shown us is a wikipedia page which uses the bible to describe Paul, and another page which only uses to KJV and the RJV. And you also say this is "well documented".

yeah I do want an answer, I don't ask questions if I don't want them answered. I know I write things that may seem stupid to you and everybody else, but these are the things I belief, and are my opinions

Two birds, one response ...

Originally posted by CoasterkidMWM

Yeah and you're choosing to continuously deny people happiness based on your religion.

Originally posted by Dragon Fly

Unless by chance you happen to have some objectively verifiable evidence, so far all you have shown us is a wikipedia page which uses the bible to describe Paul, and another page which only uses to KJV and the RJV. And you also say this is "well documented".

I simply stand amazed at your ability to continue to point your fingers at my faith, thus resulting in your prolonged and yet unfounded conclusion that I have the inability to accept your point - yet you continue to do the same thing to me.

Pot ... meet kettle.

It is written, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Im on Tconwells side.

So you can accept that there is no objectively verifiable evidence to support your religion. If not accepting an ancient text because it has no objectively verifiable evidence to support its outrageous claims is foolish, then shoot me.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by TConwell

Two birds, one response ...
I simply stand amazed at your ability to continue to point your fingers at my faith, thus resulting in your prolonged and yet unfounded conclusion that I have the inability to accept your point - yet you continue to do the same thing to me.

New question since I'm interpreting your response as you saying that you accept that your faith is the basis of the civil rights issue plaguing the country and perpetuate that by your own free will:

1. How do you sleep at night?
2. Isn't that entirely hypocritical to the goodness and holding hands under a rainbow of happiness and love stuff Christianity spews?

Some of the logic on this topic is baffling me. You're using a book which was clearly intended to be written as fiction, Harry Potter, to one that was intended to be written as non-fiction.

Also, saying that you can't believe that something happened just because there is no physical proof, that is kind of like saying that you don't believe that Sacagawea existed just because there is no physical evidence, only what a few people wrote about her. What do you want? History is something that is written about. Before the video/photography era, all we had to go on was written accounts.

And in ancient Rome, writing was significantly less common, so many fewer events were well-documented. Jesus was in the public eye for only three years, and the New Testament shows that his ministry was completely neglected by the educated Jewish authorities, and Rome really didn't care, so who exactly are you expecting to have viewed him as significant enough to write about him, aside from his own followers? It wasn't until Christianity became a major religious force some 30 years later that those in power started taking notice. And although Jesus's life is not well-documented apart from the New Testament, the rise of Christianity certainly is.


And Dragon Fly, just for some world religious perspective:

-Bhuddists generally don't believe in God or hell, and that you are either reborn, or by fleeing immorality and worldly attachments, you reach Nirvana. If this is the case, why should I worry? If I don't follow them, I'm just reborn, and that's it, so I have nothing to worry about.

-Hinduism is basically the same thing, except they do believe in gods, mainly Vishnu. But practice-wise, it's very similar. They believe that when you do good things, good things will happen to you, and they too believe in reincarnation, and that only by setting yourself free from the world can you be set free from it. But once again, there is no real penalty for not believing them. So as long as I do good, even if I don't believe in Vishnu, good things will still happen to me in this and the next life, so I'm not worried about it.

-Islam follows Allah, but he is the same god as the one in Christianity and Judaism. The only difference is that they see God as a more haughty being, who demands obedience rather than a personal relationship. But since as a Christian, I do believe in and follow God, pray, do good, and give to the poor, I really don't see why I should be concerned about Islam being right. If they are, most Christians will probably still be judged innocent.

-The old Roman and Greek gods were generally not concerned with humanity. Everyone goes to Hades once they die, and the gods only intervened in one's life if they appeased them, and even then it was just life-based rewards. Everyone dies and goes to the same place, so as far as I'm concerned if I'm going to follow this belief, I might as well be an atheist.

-The same goes for most pagan gods. Their followers sacrifice things to idols in attempts to gain favor from gods of specific actions. They are then blessed in the current life, but there is no real mention of an afterlife.

So, in light of that, I'm not especially concerned with what happens if some other belief is right.

"Some of the logic on this topic is baffling me. You're using a book which was clearly intended to be written as fiction, Harry Potter, to one that was intended to be written as non-fiction."

With the amount of objectively verifiable evidence given, Harry Potter is just as likely of existing as Jesus. No historical evidence exists for either.

"It wasn't until Christianity became a major religious force some 30 years later that those in power started taking notice. And although Jesus's life is not well-documented apart from the New Testament, the rise of Christianity certainly is."

The rise of a religion is quite different from the validity of it.



Yes, of the religions I mentioned, Buddhism is not necessarily theistic, Hinduism has a moral god, andIslam has the same roots as Christianity. But you are disregarding all the other thousands of religions and gods who are mutually exclusive, and equally likely of existing. The point I was trying to get across is that they are equally likely and equally absurd.

[Coasterkidmwm]

The Abrahamic religions are riddled with ways to oppress and discriminate people which has been the central focus of many wars and quite frankly all three religions have a hell of a lot of blood on their hands.

What I'm still trying to understand and haven't gotten a proper answer for is how people can still buy into these despite obvious paradoxes and the fact that the religion is causing civil rights problems in the United States.

I go out of my way to donate money to charities I know have no religious affiliation and go out of my way to distance myself from my family's Catholicism because I DO NOT want that blood on my hands and DO NOT want any affiliation with a group that has that terrible of a past.

[hyyyper]

^All too true. 'You' keep saying that these discussions are pointless because we would ignore everything you say.
But have you looked at it from the other side? You are the ones who keep citing bible verses. Show us some evidence that the bible can be relied upon and I'll convert.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

The Abrahamic religions are riddled with ways to oppress and discriminate people which has been the central focus of many wars and quite frankly all three religions have a hell of a lot of blood on their hands.

In case you haven't noticed, none of the texts used in these religions actually support violence. And we can't be held accountable for people twisting our religion to support their own political agendas.

Originally posted by Dragon Fly
But you are disregarding all the other thousands of religions and gods who are mutually exclusive

What thousands of other religions with mutually exclusive deities? Last time I checked, those other religions were generally polytheistic pagans, which puts them within the last category I mentioned.

Originally posted by hyyyper
'You' keep saying that these discussions are pointless because we would ignore everything you say.
But have you looked at it from the other side? You are the ones who keep citing bible verses. Show us some evidence that the bible can be relied upon and I'll convert.

My question is, what proof could you possibly ask for? The Bible promised many things which are happening, but you pass them all off as coincidence. You see demonstrations of healing, you hear of people being led by the Spirit, you hear of people getting glimpses of heaven in death, you hear of miraculous conversions where people's lives went from disaster to bliss when they put their faith in God, the Bible predicted the rise and fall of every world empire in Jerusalem, the Jews are still alive and in the land of Canaan just like God promised to Abraham, but yet again, you pass them all off as coincidence.

And personally, I'm not denying science. I don't think it necessarily contradicts the book of Genesis. Maybe Genesis is a literal history and the world is really 6000 years old. Okay. Maybe it's accurate except for the time frame, and God has been creating the world for billions of years. Okay. Maybe we did evolve, and Genesis is just a metaphor to show how God came to us, and our need for salvation. Okay. They all lead to the same God, so I'm not worried about the how so much as the why. The 'why' is the point that Genesis is trying to get across.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library ... _index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... traditions
http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm
http://www.godchecker.com/

There be many. Most all of the cultures in the world have created deities and religions. You can't just lump them together as pagan gods demanding ritualistic sacrifice, because it isn't true.



"You see demonstrations of healing"

Faith healing is the most disgusting and disgraceful thing I have ever heard of. Having worked in the medical field, I find it insulting when insane con men convince people that they are capable of healing them via faith, only to have them come to the hospital weeks later for real treatment.

Describe the prophecies you are talking about. The problem with biblical prophecy is the same as every other religious texts prophecy. For the same reason you don't accept the Vedas' or Nostradamus' prophecy, I do not accept Bible's.

Satisfactory evidence would be Yahweh responding to me when I ask if he exists.

Originally posted by CJD

They all lead to the same God, so I'm not worried about the how so much as the why. The 'why' is the point that Genesis is trying to get across.

Absolutely brilliant!!

Here is a great church sign seen down the road from our house ...



"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Corinthians 15:14)

I wanted to post this seperately so that it would not be lost in the shuffle.

Originally posted by hyyyper

^All too true. 'You' keep saying that these discussions are pointless because we would ignore everything you say.
But have you looked at it from the other side? You are the ones who keep citing bible verses. Show us some evidence that the bible can be relied upon and I'll convert.

I used to be heavily into alcohol. My life was a wreck. I treated my wife and kids like crap and was a horrible person to anyone I met. Then, on April 14, 1994, Jesus Christ came into my life and I went from someone headed for destruction to someone with hope and a future all because of John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.") and Romans 3:23 ("for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). I never went to rehab, I never sought treatment, I simply relied on Jesus Christ and His promise to heal me and take the addiction from me; and I stand before you as a Pastor; a man Ordained to do the work of the ministry; solely without anyone but Jesus Christ's intervention in my life.

Other than that -- I don't know what else I could testify about.

Because we believe what we believe, our belief is not in vain?
Personal anecdotes prove nothing. After finding rationality, I read and discarded the bible, as well as my belief in Santa Claus. Even most toddlers are able to see through the fiction in it. After finding rationality, I dedicated my life to aiding scientific progress, knowledge, and helping humanity. I have saved lives with the EMS. Does this anecdote prove anything? No, it merely describes my past, it holds no relevance on what is historically evident. Ever heard of the placebo effect? People find redemption in all sorts of things, not just Jesus.

You are right that personal anecdotes prove nothing; neither does your continuing to ramble about my beliefs - of which you know nothing.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by TConwell

I wanted to post this seperately so that it would not be lost in the shuffle.

Originally posted by hyyyper

^All too true. 'You' keep saying that these discussions are pointless because we would ignore everything you say.
But have you looked at it from the other side? You are the ones who keep citing bible verses. Show us some evidence that the bible can be relied upon and I'll convert.

I used to be heavily into alcohol. My life was a wreck. I treated my wife and kids like crap and was a horrible person to anyone I met. Then, on April 14, 1994, Jesus Christ came into my life and I went from someone headed for destruction to someone with hope and a future all because of John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.") and Romans 3:23 ("for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). I never went to rehab, I never sought treatment, I simply relied on Jesus Christ and His promise to heal me and take the addiction from me; and I stand before you as a Pastor; a man Ordained to do the work of the ministry; solely without anyone but Jesus Christ's intervention in my life.

Other than that -- I don't know what else I could testify about.

No don't be offended by this but just because got a boost of self-confidence suddenly proofs God exists. Are you sure it was Jesus would got you off alcohol. Wasn't it just an hallucination.
Or in other words: placebo effect. You though god/jesus was helping you and get overcame your drinking problem.
I don't know the details so forgive me if I totally missing the point.

I am questioning your beliefs because they are absurd. I do not accept your words or the bible as true because I do not have the gullibility to accept everything I hear as truth. You have claimed that it is well documented but all the links you provided cited absolutely no historical evidence what so ever. If I am a fool for being skeptical and not accepting what is obviously false hopes to rational people, then call me what you will. But if you want anybody to take your bullpoop seriously you need to gain some intellectual integrity and some historical evidence to back it up.