Another religious discussion (Tconwell)

I am not claiming that gods do not exist. You do believe that gods exist, you have probably heard of the burden of proof if you have been proselytizing. As an example, if I believe in the invisible pink unicorn, should I ask you to provide evidence it does not exist? Of course not. I am the one making the assertion, so I am the one who must provide evidence for it. The burden of proof is on me. Similarly I must provide evidence for Qwerty's existence, rather than you providing evidence of Qwerty's non-existence. But to ask you to prove the non-existance of Qwerty is a bit much, because proving a universal negative, especially intangible ones, is pretty tricky. This is how science operates. This way, claims such as the invisible pink unicorn, can not sneak in.

*Actually, I think Russel's Teapot was mentioned earlier, it is a much more eloquent explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russels_teapot

**To add to that, I should say that I am an agnostic atheist towards most gods. However, you may determine if some gods do not exist based on their characteristics. For example, an omniscient and omnipotent god. Omniscience and omnipotence are conflicting traits, so gods who are given the characteristics of omniscience and omnipotence can not be real.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by TConwell

Originally posted by hyyyper

I'm sorry, but I can't. All the things I life I've witnessed are to be explained by either logic, biology or chemistry. God or jesus has not been a part of my life. I once again urge you to look it from my prespective and you'll get my point.

I have looked at it from your point because before the age of 22 I too denied that God existed. And so, I have been where you are.

Yet you still refuse to anser the question posed earlier. How are people supposed to believe in god/jesus or whoever if they do not know they exist? I'm 20 now, perhaps god will make himself known to me in 10 years, perhaps never.

As for proving the existence of god, that is indeed the task of the one who claims he exists. Not existing untill proven otherwise so to speak. And please, for once, do not use
"God exists" [Bible 24:8] as an answer.

Does anyone know who Zacharia Sitchen is? He can provide evidense on this subject, because according to the theory of eveolution we should still be cave-men

Post some of the facts he states please. I am dying to read them. And Obama isn't the Anti-Christ.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by CKidd

Does anyone know who Zacharia Sitchen is? He can provide evidense on this subject, because according to the theory of eveolution we should still be cave-men

Do YOU know him? He thinks the world was seeded by aliens.

Ironically enough, since the time of cavemen, man has left its mark on the planet with cave paintings and we've found ancient tools in those caves. So you can draw up a pretty neat timeline from cavemen to present with that.
The only thing 'missing' from evolution are 'links', intermediate spieces between two sorts of animals. However, with the littlest of imagination, you should be able to connect the dots.

ok atleast theres something that says someone actually read what I write.
and I read about half of his book

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by hyyyper
The only thing 'missing' from evolution are 'links', intermediate spieces between two sorts of animals. However, with the littlest of imagination, you should be able to connect the dots.

Or you could finally be allowed to dig in China where they're finding "link" species left and right

The missing link. I love it. We have a plethera of apes today. We have more humans than we know what to do with. But, oddly enough there is not ONE SINGLE "link" between the two. If we evolved, where is the connection?

Odd that we would have the beginning of the spectrum and the end of it, and yet that one piece of information would be hidden from all of us geniuses, eh? (Gosh, don't the evolutionists just hate that FACT?)

Then curiously, this little gem comes to life.

Everyone knows the story about Noah building an ark to rescue ....

Then, fast forward to 2006 in Iran (suspected location of where the Ark settled on Mt Ararat) finds what they believe are pieces of wood some "13,120 feet above sea level". Seriously, who would carry stuff up there (especially considering the size) and just leave it there?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=50857

6,000 years later, 13,000 feet up a mountain ... and yet, here they find wood. Interesting essay here on petrified wood.

Odd, isn't it? We have scientific proof of something from the Bible (all the way at the beginning mind you), and yet I am sure Mr. Epstein will have something brilliant to say.

Gets popcorn ...

PS: Long day today, so I am done for the evening. Night.

Homo sapiens are apes.

Not everything fossilizes. Fossilization is a rare event; very rare. In any given population, only a small small portion will fossilize. At the species level, not that many fossils are found, but at the genus level, there is an abundance. For example, in the Genus Australopithecus, several fossils of many different species in that genus have been found, but each individual species has only a few fossils. Sometimes this can lead to confusion, such as whether Paranthropus aethiopicus were descendants of Australopithecus afarensis or Australopithecus bahrelghazali. The "missing links" are species gaps which arise when such events happen. Science is forever developing though, and things like Endogenous Retroviral DNA futher add to our knowledge. Endogenous retroviruses are retroviruses derived from ancient viral infections of germ cells, instead of exploding in reproductive fury like most retroviruses, endogenous onces are defunct and are passed on to the next generation and now remain in the genome. The human genome project found several thousand ERVs classified into 24 families. Geneticists can use endogenous retroviral DNA as genetic markers. An example would be the Felidae family. The standard phylogenetic tree has small cats diverging later than large cats. The small cats share a specific retroviral gene insertion. In contrast, all other carnivores which have been tested lack this retrogene. You can basically play connect the dots to make your own phylogentic tree, like these guys did
CLick here for link
It just so happens to be that it matches the genetic, morphological and microbiological trees of life. Interesting how completely independent tests and fields in biology have the exact same results.

As for Noah, I gotta hand it to him. Not just any old man could bring two of ever 350 000 species of beetles onto a boat, with the food to feed them, AND keep their predators from eating them. Keeping fresh water fish alive after mixing all the salt with the fresh. Bringing the Koalas all the way over to Australia from Turkey.

Most kids in Grade 2 who hear the story of Noah and the ark are capable of understanding how absurd it is. This is a fantasy which rivals that of Toddler's. Sure its a nice story (except the part where god decides to kill everybody), but it isn't true. If the world did have a flood on the scale depicted in the bible, then why is there absolutely no geological evidence of it? When floods happen on a minor scale, they carry all the sedimentary layers with them, basically making a new big layer of dirt. If there was a global flood, than there should be a massive massive layer. Nothing like that is found. Matt being a geology major could go into more depth on it. Things like global floods would leave an extraordinary amount of evidence behind.


Had to do it.

[Coasterkidmwm]

*Biased website. Nothing can be considered valid until it is published a peer-reviewed journal

*Who is the scientist?

*Photo link opens a search engine, no photos, all links are essentially dead and excuse to get to the search engine

*Petrified wood requires mineral rich water to flow around the wood and through it, allowing the minerals precipitate and replace the cellulose. It also requires burial. This process takes around 100 years and mineral rich waters flushing through the system. The waters receded WELL BERFORE 100 years time. Thus the time frame is impossible according to the Bible itself.

*Where is the sedimentary environment? The picture provided is not a sedimentary environment, it's on top of a mountain! You need a basin for deposition.

*Strike and dip of the rock units?

*Petrology of the petrified wood is what?

"When the retrieved pieces were cut open, a marine fossil was discovered". So they found a saltwater creature in an environment of severely decreased salinity magically inside a piece of petrified wood? Give me a break.

The area is clearly mountainous, and that sure looks a hell of a lot like a variant of syncline to me.

Originally posted by TConwell

Odd that we would have the beginning of the spectrum and the end of it, and yet that one piece of information would be hidden from all of us geniuses, eh? (Gosh, don't the evolutionists just hate that FACT?)

What fact? I don't see how this violates the current theory of evolution. It does violate the theory Darwin came up with though. In order to oppose a theory you must be able to understand it. I'd like to see you post the current theory of evolution in your own words.

Originally posted by Dragon Fly

Homo sapiens are apes.

Not everything fossilizes. Fossilization is a rare event; very rare. In any given population, only a small small portion will fossilize. At the species level, not that many fossils are found, but at the genus level, there is an abundance. For example, in the Genus Australopithecus, several fossils of many different species in that genus have been found, but each individual species has only a few fossils. Sometimes this can lead to confusion, such as whether Paranthropus aethiopicus were descendants of Australopithecus afarensis or Australopithecus bahrelghazali. The "missing links" are species gaps which arise when such events happen.

As for Noah, I gotta hand it to him. Not just any old man could bring two of ever 350 000 species of beetles onto a boat, with the food to feed them, AND keep their predators from eating them.

Most kids in Grade 2 who hear the story of Noah and the ark are capable of understanding how absurd it is. This is a fantasy which rivals that of Toddler's. Sure its a nice story (except the part where god decides to kill everybody), but it isn't true. If the world did have a flood on the scale depicted in the bible, then why is there absolutely no geological evidence of it? When floods happen on a minor scale, they carry all the sedimentary layers with them, basically making a new big layer of dirt. If there was a global flood, than there should be a massive massive layer. Nothing like that is found. Matt being a geology major could go into more depth on it. Things like global floods would leave an extraordinary amount of evidence behind.


Had to do it.

I'd like to become a part of the Qwerty religion, I'm just curious as to know, what do you call a member?

A... Qwertic? A... Qwertyuiop? Qwertolic?

We believers of Qwerty do not assign labels to anyone.

Except the foolish non-believers.

The religious don't deserve to be here.

Science created the internet, computers, keyboards, mouses. Science disproves religion.

Leave.

No God created those silly.

[Oscar]

Piff, Al Gore created the Internet!
*sarcasm*

No, the internet created Al Gore!

[Oscar]

No! Bill Clinton created Monica Chewinsky!

[Oscar]

oh wait, I am off topic now [:(]

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by TConwell

The missing link. I love it. We have a plethera of apes today. We have more humans than we know what to do with. But, oddly enough there is not ONE SINGLE "link" between the two. If we evolved, where is the connection?

Odd that we would have the beginning of the spectrum and the end of it, and yet that one piece of information would be hidden from all of us geniuses, eh? (Gosh, don't the evolutionists just hate that FACT?)

Then curiously, this little gem comes to life.

Everyone knows the story about Noah building an ark to rescue ....

Then, fast forward to 2006 in Iran (suspected location of where the Ark settled on Mt Ararat) finds what they believe are pieces of wood some "13,120 feet above sea level". Seriously, who would carry stuff up there (especially considering the size) and just leave it there?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=50857

6,000 years later, 13,000 feet up a mountain ... and yet, here they find wood. Interesting essay here on petrified wood.

Odd, isn't it? We have scientific proof of something from the Bible (all the way at the beginning mind you), and yet I am sure Mr. Epstein will have something brilliant to say.

Gets popcorn ...

PS: Long day today, so I am done for the evening. Night.

I wasn't taking about the missing link between humans and apes. More like missing link between lizards and mammals. But as I also said before, 'missing link' species are in most cases intermediate species, meaning they are just part of the transistion and then get extinct because the race they evolved in got superior. And admit, it is a very small step between apes and cave-men. Scientist have compared to DNA of apes and the present human and they are very much alike. Evolution has had some million years to mutate that DNA. To me, and to a lot of others, it's simply connecting the dots and interpolating.

As for Noahs ark. It only proves there's a boat on a mountain. 'Ice-age'-ice flows could have brough it there. Where do you think these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_erratic came from?

Now, time for a mind experiment. There is a world wide catastrophe, almost all of the populatio is wiped out and cities are destroyed. 2000 years later, a dude finds the books of Harry Potter. Another dude uncovers, 200 years later, the remains of what appears to be London. According to your theory, these people would instandly believe Harry Potter

Man oh man, can you guys just not accept different people have different beliefs? It is impossible for either side to prove the other wrong or right, because you live in two different worlds, the world of facts and statistics, and the world of faith and belief. I am one of those hippy retarded art types who lives somewhere between the two that gets frustrated at both worlds colliding. The fact is, even if Dragon Fly and coasterkidmwm state all the facts and statistics EVER to prove evolution, does that mean TJ has to believe it or accept his religion is wrong? Or explain it to you? No. Because he lives by faith and spiritual belief, fair enough, well done him. Ideas of faith and spiritualism vary from person to person, so the ideas they have are way more personal than any statistics you guys can quote, so they aren't going to make him change any sort of opinion if his beliefs are so deeply routed. And the same goes for the other way round, TJ can quote the Bible all he wants, because he interprets the text in a way he sees fit, but the fact is, we dont believe the bible so he could be quoting anything. Its an interesting discussion to hear each others viewpoints and the way people live, but does it really have to get to the point of trying to prove people wrong or right? Because im afraid, you're never going to do it.

I have probably the exact opposite beliefs of TCon in fact, we probably really wouldnt get on in person, let's face it. But i admire his strength and utter belief in what he believes, because you guys are throwing so much at him, and he stands strong to the ideas he wants to live his life by, even without proof. You say hes not seeing your side of the story, but are you really looking at his? Every quote about evolution you state, is just like another bible quote on your part. Meaningless when you dont believe it. Just a thought.

Oh and about the oxygen comment a long way back TJ. Sure, if you said you didnt believe in Oxygen, i'd probably think you were a fool, but who am i to tell you you're wrong? So i wouldnt. I'd think it, but i'd still admire you for staying so strong to something you believe. I hope that answers your question?

Thanks J, at least someone outside of me (and of course CJD) can see that the barrage is becoming a bore, and quite the ludicrous task to continue fighting off ... especially when it all really stemmed from one simple thing: Matt's vain attempt to trick me up by using a photo that could have come from anywhere under the sun (especially with the computer graphic skills we have today) and his own disturbed, personal bias for me by choosing my name as the header of the topic. Eh?

No problem TJ, im getting slowly jaded with most people in the world seeing things as black and white, when really theres alot more to it than that. The Earth is a diverse place, and the beauty of evolution is the fact that we have grown to understand opinion and rights. One thing that struck me earlier, which is controversial because it is so against my cause, is when someone stated you were blocking civil rights if you would not marry two fat women. Im gay, so i am incredibly biased towards civil partnerships, however, interestingly i sided with you. Why? Because it is just as much you're right to refuse to marry two fat ladies, as it is their right to want to get married. Everyone is about the rights of minorities, that is great, but do not take away the rights of the masses to give rights to the minorities. That is just retarded, sorry for my lack of eloquence.

True it was a bit of a personal attack, BUT he wanted to make his point, which he did. And theres no better way of making a point than with controversy, which Matt is very good at.

Originally posted by jpecool

No problem TJ, im getting slowly jaded with most people in the world seeing things as black and white, when really theres alot more to it than that. The Earth is a diverse place, and the beauty of evolution is the fact that we have grown to understand opinion and rights. One thing that struck me earlier, which is controversial because it is so against my cause, is when someone stated you were blocking civil rights if you would not marry two fat women. Im gay, so i am incredibly biased towards civil partnerships, however, interestingly i sided with you. Why? Because it is just as much you're right to refuse to marry two fat ladies, as it is their right to want to get married.

My gosh Thank you!! Man, I was wondering if ANYONE would ever get/see that point.

Originally posted by jpecool

Everyone is about the rights of minorities, that is great, but do not take away the rights of the masses to give rights to the minorities. That is just retarded, sorry for my lack of eloquence.

Understood completely, until the desires of said group appears on my front lawn or in front of my church (like we/I have any power to change anything). That is when it gets annoying, IMO.

Originally posted by jpecool

True it was a bit of a personal attack, BUT he wanted to make his point, which he did. And theres no better way of making a point than with controversy, which Matt is very good at.

Yeah ........ so is my 15 year old daughter.

Have a great day bud.

Im sure most gay people are aware of your point TJ. They just don't want to acknowledge it because they think it weakens their position. Which it really doesn't. Anyone should be allowed to get married. But only by someone who totally supports the marriage right? Otherwise it totally undermines the whole point.

Thanks mate, hope you have a good day too.

Can you at least acknowledge that your claims on evolution are a load, and you refuse to accept it not because the evidence suggests that, but your faith does?