Zero G-Roll help!

[slosprint]

^^ I can't see the link due to the fact that I am on a school computer right now and can't install the plug in but I'm guessing that is the cripple fight clip.

Gouldy, your latest excuse seems to be that one guy gave you an under-rate. I took a look at the rest of the rates, and 8 people gave you Tech scores of 8 or higher. Your average tech score on that ride, even with the under-rate, was about 8.38889. Tsar is also one of the best rides I've ever seen, incredibly thrilling and original. But a good rater can't just ignore the fact that the trackwork is of lower quality than everything else on the ride. Putting it another way: Tsar is great, but smoother trackwork would make it even better.

Now in fairness to you, it doesn't look like it could have been built in Newton 1, and appears to have been built before Newton 2 came out, but it looks like most of the same awesome elements could be built in Newton 2 and be much smoother, but would still require quite a bit of skill with multi-zone sections to get right. Also, one of your other tracks, Doomsday machine, shows the same quality as Tsar in most aspects, but is also smoother.

Now, here's another way of thinking about it: Newton 2 makes it easy to create a smooth track, which means designers who use it can devote more of their energy to everything else, and even rebuild the entire track multiple times to get the best adrenaline possible. That's certainly a big part of the reason why I use it.

By the way, talking about "the good old days" makes you sound like a 90 year old man: "bah, kids these days and their newfangled tools, who needs'em?"

Honestly, I'd like to see these tracks you're keeping to yourself, because everything else you've done is good, but if you want to complain and sulk about Newton because somebody gave you an under-rate, than go ahead.

[gouldy]

I am an old man of this site though, that's why I sound that way. I've been here since 2003.

It is easier to acheive more realstic trackwork using Newton, this is true and denying it would be ridiculous. But you say that this leaves designers more time to do the other stuff? This might be true, and in theory this all sounds great, but it's not the way it works, is it? You know as well as I do, that most of the tracks uploaded on this site, that are built with Newton, are just the spwan of people entering stuff into the program and seeing whether the result is good and then just adding it into their layout. This tends itself to producing tracks with no particular layout design at all. i.e. they have no soul, or feeling. In short, they suck. Despite their perfection technically, they are just poop, end of.

Also, like I already tried to say, but perhaps didn't get across. It's NOT the tools that my issue is with, it's what they've done to the "designers" that use them. The tools themselves are very good and you can create pure perfection with them, you are also able to stamp your own character on the shaping, if you wish. The problem is, people don't do that anymore. People just produce the same exact elements with the same exact shaping, just in different orders. For me, it's zapped all the fun from the thing. And it's also skewed people's opinions of what is important. It seems like a lot of people only care about the technical side and give almost no consideration to more important stuff like the things I mentioned before (I'm talking more about when people are making than when rating).

The rating in question on Tsar; it's not that he gave me an under-rate. I can cope with that, it happens to everyone on all of their coasters at some point. What I find distasteful, is that his rating is entirely based in the technical flaws of the ride and in nothing else. AND the technical problems cause him obvious hang-ups elsewhere. Again though, it's not just this one rating that has made me feel this way, I see it all over.

I'm also not in the minority in feeling this way, by the way, it's just that some others amongst us are better at holding their tongue than I am.

I'd also like to say that my feelings aren't this way just because of what has been mentioned above. The general attitude of the people on this site has deteriorated (whether by coincidence or not) massively since the collapse of CoasterSims, go figure.

AND, on a more personal note. This isn't some form of an "excuse" as you put it, this is the way I feel, alright? There is also no "sulking" and I don't really appreciate the insunuation, I'm not 8. What I said was; I use NoLimits for the enjoyment of building the coaster and I get my own enjoyment from seeing the coaster finished, I feel no need to upload anymore. How is this sulking?

What really bothers me, is that almost everyone using Newton includes those silly roll things, that don't resemble anything ever made in real life and tryes to pass them on as corkscrews. Plus, they always have uber-unrealistically fast transitions in them. Well, basically all noob-Newton rides have very unrealistic banking transitions, sometimes too fast, sometimes too slow, sometimes uneven, sometimes without forcer change, where there should be a change in forces.
Basically, you noobs rooting for newton, and saying how handbuilders are snobs and stuff, you really just are big noobs. But here's the fun part. You will never EVER get out of the noob stage this way! Because, when handbuilding, you learn to have a good eye for shaping various elements, transitions, or how shaping relates to forces and similar stuff, that you can't learn if you put some numbers into the program and call it a day. Handbuilders learn to get picky about mistakes, which you can't, because Newton doesn't makes these little mistakes. Newton makes a "perfect track". Perfect to the noobish eye, that is. And since it looks perfect to you, you won't even try to make it better. It's that simple.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, that handbuilders actually have a goal, to make their tracks as good as possible, and becouse of that goal, they keep on trying to make better coasters. Newton builders don't have the goal, as their tracks are perfect or "good enough" in their eyes. The only goal they have is making as many coasters as possible, and that gets quite boring after some time, doesn't it.
Also, every succesfull NL designer I know started with handbuilding! What does that tell you?

"You should all just go download it and see how big of a difference it makes."

Yeah, been there. Newt2 crashed my system twice. I'd love to learn to use it and use it correctly. But when I state I can't use IT and have to hand build, the response is always, lame, you should never hand build. I like hand building, yeah, it's difficult to get a super smooth track but not impossible like some think.

Newt2 is a great product when used properly. All gouldy is saying, most people are not using it correctly and get pissed when they don't get a high rate and down rate rides where tools were not used. When I upload a track I know what rates I should get and they are always pretty close and usually higher than I would have thought.

This is a very retarded argument. Seems rates these days are focusing only on smoothness and nothing else. If you can see no tools were used for a ride, don't take points off for not using tools. Rate the ride as a whole, not as it wasn't smooth therefor it sucks.

Make sense? And this rating issue is on all the NL exchange sites, not just here.

Originally posted by slosprint

^^ I can't see the link due to the fact that I am on a school computer right now and can't install the plug in but I'm guessing that is the cripple fight clip.

lol. yeah.

Originally posted by Vid_w

What really bothers me, is that almost everyone using Newton includes those silly roll things, that don't resemble anything ever made in real life and tryes to pass them on as corkscrews. Plus, they always have uber-unrealistically fast transitions in them. Well, basically all noob-Newton rides have very unrealistic banking transitions, sometimes too fast, sometimes too slow, sometimes uneven, sometimes without forcer change, where there should be a change in forces.
Basically, you noobs rooting for newton, and saying how handbuilders are snobs and stuff, you really just are big noobs. But here's the fun part. You will never EVER get out of the noob stage this way! Because, when handbuilding, you learn to have a good eye for shaping various elements, transitions, or how shaping relates to forces and similar stuff, that you can't learn if you put some numbers into the program and call it a day. Handbuilders learn to get picky about mistakes, which you can't, because Newton doesn't makes these little mistakes. Newton makes a "perfect track". Perfect to the noobish eye, that is. And since it looks perfect to you, you won't even try to make it better. It's that simple.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, that handbuilders actually have a goal, to make their tracks as good as possible, and becouse of that goal, they keep on trying to make better coasters. Newton builders don't have the goal, as their tracks are perfect or "good enough" in their eyes. The only goal they have is making as many coasters as possible, and that gets quite boring after some time, doesn't it.
Also, every succesfull NL designer I know started with handbuilding! What does that tell you?

Incorrect. I use Newton, but I attempt to use it better with every track I make. You also didn't take into account that plenty of Newton designers put a lot of effort into themeing and supports, which invalidates your argument further. N00bs will produce crappy rides with or without Newton. Oh, and you just brought down the level of this debate. While I disagree with Gouldy, he's trying to actually make arguments for his viewpoint, as am I. You, on the other hand, are name calling, and appear not to have spell-checked or proof-read your post before submitting.

@Onjin: "If you can see no tools were used for a ride, don't take points off for not using tools. Rate the ride as a whole, not as it wasn't smooth therefor it sucks."

This is what I do. If a track is handbuilt and smooth, I don't downrate. However, if any ride, Newton or not, has jerks (often caused in Newton by overly fast transitions), red Gs, or other issues, it will get a technical score one or two points lower than a smoother track otherwise of the same quality.

But I'm glad somebody's trying to take a moderate viewpoint on this. Hopefully it will prevent a flame war XP

and appear not to have spell-checked or proof-read your post before submitting.

Big deal?

Hopefully it will prevent a flame war XP

Then, what is the point of Coaster Crazy?

Originally posted by devilsrule911

and appear not to have spell-checked or proof-read your post before submitting.

Big deal?

Typos and grammar errors tend not to lend credibility to insults. Now who feels like getting back on topic?

[gouldy]

not me! [:P]

When did you last read a topic on here that stayed on course for it's entire length?

Originally posted by Cedar Point Fan

Haha, I remember the days of being a hand builder. I was starting out in early July of 09 (last year). I was getting really pissed because everyone was using Newton and I couldn't come close to it hand building. And yes, sure, I will admit it takes more skill to hand build well. But I ask you, why did you start using Nolimits? I did it because I loved coasters and I wanted to design my own. So what is so wrong to have a way to better articulate ideas? Since when is it a crime to try and make a coaster more realistic? Face it, your argument sounds ridiculous. You really want to ride a coaster in real life that had no force based program used? God no. Let alone massive steel coasters like I305. My point is, you can argue all you want, but Newton is the more realistic way of making coasters. You should all just go download it and see how big of a difference it makes.

Hi, I'm a noob and I'm about to give my insight. [|)]


Being a veteran of No Limits since the "ol' days" (CoasterSims, NLDC, etc.) I've always built handmade coasters. Sure, the tools may be a realistic alternative to hand-building, but it totally corrupts the No Limits community exchange. I don't have any problems with people using the tools, but it's the fact that it creates a bias towards hand made coasters. Only human understanding can split computer-generated tracks from authentic handmade works.

This being said, my proposal to fix this is having two sections in the Exchange. Computer Generated tracks and Handmade tracks. This would eliminate the biased towards handmade tracks for imperfections such as imperfect heart-lining and out-of-proportion G forces.

As for your response to tools creating more realistic coasters, I can only limit my response to one sentence;

hi im no limits and this isnt real lief

[slosprint]

Uh, tooled tracks are not CG... although i guess you could classify both as CG lol.

A computer computes input to produce an outcome. Newton is a piece of software running on your computer, and it generates .nlelem files. So it is computer generated...


EDIT: You're probably about to say that handmade rides can be considered CG also, and that's true, but there's a severe disadvantage; No Limits does not calculate G forces and speed and will accept anything you want it to, without correction. However, Newton aids creation by letting you put in every specific detail.

[slosprint]

No, it's just different inputs and outputs. In newton you input the gs and roll and you get the shape. In hand building you input the shape and roll and get the gs. They are simply different approaches to take when you build a coaster and you can mess up on both. Granted you get smoother tracks from newton when it is used correctly but it makes it more difficult to pull off certain elements like corkscrews correctly.

Go compare two coasters, one tooled and one handmade, and tell me which one is better. Or better yet, let me just tell you; the tooled coaster will be better. although the handmade coaster has more work put into it, it'll get a worse rating because the tooled ride beats it, even though it was most likely a weekend project.

[slosprint]

Not if the rater is at all competent. Tooled rides have flaws as well. if not made properly they are misshapen and have no layout of any kind.

Since I started building with NL, my skills were built on steps of learning the creation process of building in NL.
I first started with handbuilding, which for quite a while.
After that, I discovered Ahg (something I still haven?????????t fully got the hang of.)
Next was H:sak and elementary elements.
Then fvds.
And finally, Newton 2. (The original Newton program was fun, but there was too much that caused bad tracks.)

All great programs, but some are harder than others, with the top of the list being handbuilding.
This is my take on the whole creation process dispute.

When fvds was the way to create NL "perfection," handbuilding was too hard for the average noob. The difficulty level of fvds was even higher, furthermore forcing the noobs to continue with handbuilding. This led to the person learning more about coasters and shaping to get a desired shape, valuable coaster-building knowledge.
Nowadays, a person just starting out may handbuild a few times. But they will hear of Newton 2 sooner or later, and download it. Using nothing but that program over time would eventually create a dependency on the program for a half-decent track with an extreme lack of knowledge in general coaster-...everything.

This is why we keep seeing the tracks you are all talking about on the exchange. No one has to know anything about coasters to build one in NL anymore, just a downloaded program and a few YouTube videos. This is why I wish such a fantastic program like Newton 2 could have cost some amount of money. Nothing extreme, but like maybe $5 or $10. The people who really care about the quality of their coasters and were smart enough to know that they would definitely use it would buy it, and the noobs just out to find the easiest way to make a smooth track wouldn't bother.

Unfortunately this isn't the situation.

Although I consider handbuilding and ahg to somewhat go together as one, I say a good builder would be one who can handbuild a ride decently even if they can build a perfect track with tools. I mean, it kinda proves itself when I consider the fact that my highest rated ride is handbuilt.

[slosprint]

Yeah, I am hand building a ride right now when I'm not working on the contest