2010 NLT - Round 1

[hyyyper]

Where it concerns the E-stop, I press the E-stop at the latest possible moment where the brakes can still stop the train. Then I release the train and see if all the other trains make it back safely. In real life, a coaster should be able to pass even if you are pumping the E-stop (which I did not do).

As for pacing. It's just what every ride needs. Some of you guys had huge hills that slowed the train down so much that the ride just got boring. Others used lower hills and had better scores.

And Coasterkidmwm, do I have to remind you that this tournament is about making good coasters and make them look like other rides of the company? I said in the description that airtime is important. If you make hills with -0.8 G's in the front and back, the middle seats won't have airtime. What's wrong with putting -1.5 in the back and front so that middle seats have airtime too?

Anyways, I'll check all your E-stops in a moment.

Because that's unrealistic.

^Agreed
Also
I usually do my B&M hills by making a 0G parabola. The middle seats than have exactly 0G, while the front and back seats have, depending on the steepness and how quick the transition is, around -0.2 to -0.4 Gs.
I'm guessing B&M does the same thing on real coasters.

The hills on my entry had Gs set from as low as -0.1G to -0.5G.

On the older B&M megas I believe they did 0 from the front and back seats and the middle didn't have any airtime, but they still got down enough where you had the sensation of starting to lift. On the new one's I'd guess you're right....0 in the middle seat.

Hyyyper, you realize SROS, which is widely regarded to have some of the strongest airtime of any coaster, just touches -1 like twice for the whole ride? And there are graphs to prove that.

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by Freddie

Because that's unrealistic.

Says who? -1.5 isn't unrealistic. There are rides out there that have those amounts of Gs.

It is true that real B&M Mega's do not have those Gs. But like I said a gazillion times, you are not building a B&M Mega, it's just the train and tracktype that's B&M, the layout, trackwork and supports is totally up to you.

See above. I also think you're misinterpreting strong Gs as being the sole factor on what determines fun (before this in itself gets misinterpreted, I mean that not every hill has to have the most extreme Gs of any coaster anywhere for it to be fun).

[hyyyper]

^I'm pretty sure El Toro and T-Express get to -1.5, they might be woodies, but the point remains valid.
And during the ratings, Adrenaline is divided in three sections: Pacing, Excitement and G-forces. So it doesn't weight as much as you would think.

EDIT: Besides that, since everyone is measured with the same standard, the difference between the individual ratings would be the same if I would take -1 G as very good. It would simply get everybody score up with 0.15th of a mark.

In othern news:
ROUND 2 HAS STARTED!
http://www.coastercrazy.com/forum/topic ... C_ID=22959

You mention it in every contest you hold and in every instance it leads to bad judging and people complain. I don't understand why two rides, that might have the most extreme forces ever, are the bar for EVERY NL ride made, as in they ALL have to meet this. And I've never seen anything supporting that they hit -1.5....I have seen the number thrown around but never any factual evidence like the SROS graphs. Again, that ride has been considered to have some of the strongest airtime of any ride, and again, it has a total of like two or three spots that even get near -1.

I also consider your pacing judging dumb based on the fact that you made people use 12 car trains, which again are unrealistic. We don't have the right trains in NL, so we don't know how they'll pace, so why not use the proper number of cars for what we do have and judge pacing based on that?

Excitement fails for both of these because to get the unrealistic forces you want while still retaining somewhat realistic shaping (and I'm glad people make an effort to do this), the train has to slow down quite a bit as it crests the hill which you say kills excitement and pacing.

All this has been said before, I know you aren't going to listen now because you haven't in the past at all, but really. I think you need to realize that what you're asking for makes for uninteresting, unrealistic rides, that everyone except apparently you seems to have a problem with. I personally find it more exciting when someone gets the 0G hill with B&M shaping and correct pacing right than your ridiculous must hit -1.5 over every hill with an absurdly long train that makes pacing unrealistic.

[hyyyper]

Then you have joined the wrong tournament. If you want a contest that requires you to perfectly mimic the style B&M uses, this is not it.

Like it says in the description of this round, the park wanted an airtime machine. It would be pretty rude to tell the park "Nah, we only went to -0.8 because it would be unrealistic otherwise".

Your creativity shouldn't be limited by what companies used to build in the past, but on limits of a human body. Some people around here think that if you have to use the B&M trackstyle, you have to make a track in the building style of B&M. And those are two wholly different things.

And it is certainly doable to get good pacing and airtime with long trains. Medium sized hills work perfectly for this, and some of the people in the contest used it. You can't just apply an 8-seater layout to a 12-seater train. It just doesn't work out, so you'll have to think outside the box to make it work.

Your creativity should be limited by realism, that's the challenge. Anyone can make an unrealistic piece of poop with over the top forces....but I could probably count the people I think can actually make a realistic ride with realistic limits on one hand. That is the challenge.

How is -.8 not an airtime machine? You are clearly lifted out of your seat and pinned to a lapbar...that is airtime! Would you consider Shivering Timbers, which probably is between 0 and -.4 or so with the exception of the drop off the turnaround to be an airtime machine? It's pretty much the definition in my opinion. What about Boulder Dash? Seen force charts of that that say it only gets to around -.5 and averages 0 to -.2....yet I personally have had some rides on that that actually scared me. The Voyage? Again...It's hardest hitting spot I believe is around -.5 and averages 0. And back to SROS....first hill....-.6....yet you are CLEARLY pinned to the lapbar for the entire duration of that hill. I would consider a ride with just that hill to be an airtime machine that beats out a lot of other rides in sheer forces (original...not so much). You seem to think that because 1-2 rides do it every ride needs to on every hill...and that's just plain wrong. You don't need to push the limits of the human body to be fun either.

Again, I don't expect you to pay attention to this at all, because it's all been said in the past and you clearly don't care. But don't you think when so many people have a problem with it, for quite a few years now, you should rethink how you're doing things? No offense but you are one of the worst judges of these things that I've ever seen in my 6 or so years in the NoLimits world.

[hyyyper]

-0.8 is an airtime machine. But like I said before, if ALL the seats would have than airtime, it's ok. But the rides in this round only had to forces in the back and front, completely disregarding the middle seats.

Anyways, you can throw numbers at me all you want, but can you show be these charts you talk about? If you can show me those from a good source, I will certainly reconsider my view on airtime.

And what exactly is realism is your eyes? Is everything that has been done before realism or is it everything that's physically possible? If all we ever did was do stuff that's been done a thousand times over, how do we come up with new stuff?

[hyyyper]

Ok, guitarplayer and slosprint, I looked at your tracks again and they both fail e-stop.

guitarplayer, if you press the E-stop just before the train totally clears the station it will not have enough speed to make it to transport segment and valley in the pre-lift.

slosprint, if you press E-stop when there's a train on the brake run and another train just clears the lift, the train on the brake will stay there untill the other train crashes into it because the brakes don't slow it down enough.



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As I said before, the middle rows of Apollo's Chariot might not have actual lift, but you still feel the sensation of being lighter, so while it's not actual airtime, it isn't a completely dead moment like you're making it out to be. Clearly something happens there, and while it's not intense it's a unique feeling that is very enjoyable in itself. Definitely not boring (I will say that I didn't notice even this over the hills of Raging Bull at all, which I would say is boring).

http://rideofsteel.com/page.php?id=4
The Boulder Dash charts have been taken down, I found the post but the images are broken. I have them somewhere on my computer, I'll look tomorrow. I did find this one of Piraten, which I think most people see as having pretty extreme air (I know they do of Maverick, and it has basically the same hills), yet it only has a few instances of being over -1. The instances are also very short, which indicates that there was some noise, as well as a shaping technique (or so I'm told) Intamin uses that "pumps" over the hills in very small increments. This is way more apparent on SROS, but I'd bet it happens at the peak of Piraten's hills as well judging from the graph.

You can be original while staying within constraints. CCI built over 30 rides, all similar in forces that they pulled and even shaping, yet many of them feel different from one another and they obviously have distinctive, original layouts. I guess I do consider following an actual company's styling to be realistic, just because no one can do it right thus it is more challenging, however I think people can have original shaping that is new and different while still being realistic. Again, I can't think of many people off the top of my head who I think actually COULD do this, but that's where the challenge comes in. All you're doing is asking people to make more of the same unrealistic bullshit rides that they've been making since NL came out, except now they do it with Newton so they're all smooth.

And lol, not even gonna start on the Estop testing procedures.

[hyyyper]

Well, I guess I was wrong on the airtime values then. I will keep it in mind on my future ratings.

And please let me know your comments on the E-stop, if there's anything wrong with it please tell me rather than keeping it to yourself.

"...as well as a shaping technique (or so I'm told) Intamin uses that "pumps" over the hills in very small increments."

Sorry for going off topic, but could you explain that to me?
I don't quite understand what you mean.
I'm quite interested in Intamin's hill design!

Sorry but can you show me where I failed e-stop, i can't find out where/how at all? thanks

I thought this was one of my better tracks, oh well shows how much I know and why I don't rate tracks

[hyyyper]

Originally posted by alton_

Sorry but can you show me where I failed e-stop, i can't find out where/how at all? thanks

If you press estop when the last 1 or 2 rows are still in the station the train gets to the transport tyres, but they are unable to propeler the train onto the lift when E-stop is released.

WTF?

I might not be entering this tournament but that's bullsh*t!

Since when would any operator in their right mind let a coaster leave the station, to just stop it for an e-stop,so that it valleys? I understand an e-stop from the mid-course brakes on, so that a train does not smash into another train. But after just clearing the station?! Any operator would either hold the train in the station until the trouble has passed, or let it go until it at least hits the brakes before the lift hill. Unless you're talking about the nearly impossible circumstance of a train being left on the pre-lift brakes, WHILE another train just clears the station. Does that REALLY sound plausible?

[hyyyper]

A ride should ALWAYS be able to recover from an E-stop no matter when it is pressed. There is nothing stopping a 'bad' operator from pressing the E-stop at the first sign of trouble without looking if the train might valley.

Well I just saw that you at least didn't disqualify them from the tournament, so that's good. That would be one rip-off of a reason to be disqualified. [:D]

I agree with hyyyper on that. It may be a very unlikely circumstance but it is important. It shouldn't be a huge deduction for it, but it should NOT be there. As he said, you should be able to pass the e-stop anywhere on the track. Of course, you have the problem with E-Stop tests on No Limits on transport segments; so, that should be put into consideration.

Where is VidW's coaster? I don't see it on the exchange.

I'd really like to know how mine failed EStop. I just spent 10 minutes trying to EStop it at every possible "last instant" and nothing crashed or valleyed.

I love it. People trying to make their ride crash or valley!