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I think the problem here isn't as much about people not sticking to a certain style, but that when people do use techniques that we see on real world coasters it isn't usually recognized, especially when it comes to some of these contests. Real coasters are almost never as smooth as most NL builders like to think. Look at almost any coaster out there and you will find pumps, jerks, strange transitions, and all kinds of other things that we tend to rate people's NL rides down for.
I guess the problem is that with NL we can make coasters completely smooth and free of strange transitions. When someone intentionally makes an odd transition, usually trying to mimic one found on a real coaster, you guys see it as a mistake, something that isn't right and doesn't flow well. Usually transitions like this are used to create a certain effect, like the pumps on SROS-Bizarro's hills that kick you up out of your seat in a quick, jerky motion rather than a smooth one. In NL you can't feel this though, so it just looks like the designer messed something up.
I'm not saying all odd shaping should be recognized as being good and realistic, but when someone has recreated something or used techniques that can be seen in the real world, points shouldn't be taken off for tech or anything else.
Board index ‹ Public Relations ‹ Contests ‹ 2010 NLT - Finals - Giant Dragons International
Well for starters, I am allowed to have my own opinion. I never asked anybody to build are ride that should appeal to a demograpic. The ride should appeal to the builder and only the builder. I have some preference of my own, but I try to fair to anybody.
As for the first, B&M hyper round, everybody always complains about B&Ms not having enough airtime, for having repetative layouts. And considering how Intamin builds their hypers, the only thing the B&Ms do better are the restraints. But some of the contestants mimiced the B&M style to the letter and while I think they succeced in that point, they failed to make the ride kick-ass.
What is wrong with building the way you to build your coaster? Just because a company hasn't done something (yet) doesn't mean that it is impossible, unrealistic or wrong. I really hate the narrow-minded designs that a number of people make today. If you look back at the exchange you can see some of the old rides that did some crazy stuff. Some of those things where unrealistic and lethal, but there where also some great rides in there that had some guts.
I'm not saying that you can't use some builder's style. You should build with whatever style you are happy with. But don't expect that that if you use a certain style, you get a high score.
You ride will still be scored in Tech, Adren and Orig and if you manage to get a smooth, well supported, safe, fast, exciting, intense and original ride, you get a high score, regardless if you build it like a company would, or how you would do it.
True...I feel like they maybe weren't able to change radius over a large enough distance to do a smooth parabola so what's there was the next best option. I think it's really cool either way though, I love finding stuff like that on rides.
Anyway, back to arguing about pointless stuff...
Lots of people play MW2, yet you cant call the game very good. Its because of the lack of marketing and other products why people love that game, not because its so damn good. Same goes for coasters imo.
Now tell me, how many non-enthusiasts can you find on this site? None. All the rides we build, will only be ridden by enthusiasts. So why build a gentle ride, that would please everyone around the world... When they never will see the design? Let alone ride it...
We are enthusiasts so why not build something WE like to ride?
The words of wisdom.
Removal is allowed
2010 NLT - Finals - Giant Dragons International
90 posts
• Page 2 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
^I agree. It is close to impossible to experience a ride in NL as opposed to how real rides feel.
As for taking points of. For example the recent case with Lewis13's overbank, I didn't take point of his Tech score, but from the Orig score because the elements in the finale where quite as intense. The shaping felt odd to me, but I couldn't say it was bad, so I didn't take off points in the Tech-score.
As for taking points of. For example the recent case with Lewis13's overbank, I didn't take point of his Tech score, but from the Orig score because the elements in the finale where quite as intense. The shaping felt odd to me, but I couldn't say it was bad, so I didn't take off points in the Tech-score.
I remember when I joined this site and the contests were about having fun, rather than people nursing their ego.
It's weird how things change.
It's weird how things change.
Guitarplayer gets me. Though, I wouldn't have used that example, because through careful study of SROS shaping, I don't think that was really the intention as much as it was a (sometimes positive, sometimes negative) side effect of their design technique at the time. But yes, all of what you said was exactly what I mean.
RCT3Crazy, every (major) real "new" company has its own style to distinguish it from other manufacturers, and to achieve a certain feel or other goal. Most people in NL fall into one of two major categories: Using something like Newton to make their ride, and calling it "their own style" when they really failed at recreating a real style and let Newton control them, or those who handbuild an established style or try to make their own style. The handbuilders also almost never think of what characteristics make up their ride either. There's more to a good ride than just pacing, forces, and inversions...distinguishing style creates variety past just element order which also brings people back. If you want to make your own style and don't put thought into distinguishing characteristics (as almost all major real manufacturers do) then in my opinion your product is of significantly lower quality than it should be because the designer took the easy way out.
For example in one of the first round, accurate B&M style rides, despite the fact that they're loved by a huge demographic, were being owned in the ratings because they're not intense or fast paced enough. What about the fact that B&M designs their rides to be accessible to everyone, but still exciting for thrill seekers? If someone did that with their own style in that round, they still would've been destroyed, even though the medium paced long float hills with only a little variation along the course are established in real life as being something so many people love.
The subjective opinion of the judge, with little-to-no consideration to the facts in the previous paragraph, said more intense rides were better in his ratings. How is that fair to anyone, or even fun when the ride you've worked so hard on gets destroyed because the judge doesn't like it for his own silly reasons?
RCT3Crazy, every (major) real "new" company has its own style to distinguish it from other manufacturers, and to achieve a certain feel or other goal. Most people in NL fall into one of two major categories: Using something like Newton to make their ride, and calling it "their own style" when they really failed at recreating a real style and let Newton control them, or those who handbuild an established style or try to make their own style. The handbuilders also almost never think of what characteristics make up their ride either. There's more to a good ride than just pacing, forces, and inversions...distinguishing style creates variety past just element order which also brings people back. If you want to make your own style and don't put thought into distinguishing characteristics (as almost all major real manufacturers do) then in my opinion your product is of significantly lower quality than it should be because the designer took the easy way out.
For example in one of the first round, accurate B&M style rides, despite the fact that they're loved by a huge demographic, were being owned in the ratings because they're not intense or fast paced enough. What about the fact that B&M designs their rides to be accessible to everyone, but still exciting for thrill seekers? If someone did that with their own style in that round, they still would've been destroyed, even though the medium paced long float hills with only a little variation along the course are established in real life as being something so many people love.
The subjective opinion of the judge, with little-to-no consideration to the facts in the previous paragraph, said more intense rides were better in his ratings. How is that fair to anyone, or even fun when the ride you've worked so hard on gets destroyed because the judge doesn't like it for his own silly reasons?
^THen so something about those newtons noobs, or just all go back to hand building if you can't achieve what you say your achieving.
Also, in my eyes its plain wrong to say that a ride without distinguishing characteristics is of lower quality then one with. That is just your opinion. Believe it or not, but every ride has these distinguishing characteristics, wheter there meant to be there or not. The only probem most of the time is that some here don't like it when someone mixes all kinds of styles to create a ride.
Also, it's wrong to compare accurate B&M rides to the not accurate B&M's. Why? Cuss you don't know how the public would have reacted to the ride. Maybe the would have found those intense rides better than the accurate onces. Without clear proof of the people likeing the accurate onces better there is no single reason to say those rides are better or more loved. Then it is once again your opinion about how a ride should be.
Also, in my eyes its plain wrong to say that a ride without distinguishing characteristics is of lower quality then one with. That is just your opinion. Believe it or not, but every ride has these distinguishing characteristics, wheter there meant to be there or not. The only probem most of the time is that some here don't like it when someone mixes all kinds of styles to create a ride.
Also, it's wrong to compare accurate B&M rides to the not accurate B&M's. Why? Cuss you don't know how the public would have reacted to the ride. Maybe the would have found those intense rides better than the accurate onces. Without clear proof of the people likeing the accurate onces better there is no single reason to say those rides are better or more loved. Then it is once again your opinion about how a ride should be.
Originally posted by dcs221
For example in one of the first round, accurate B&M style rides, despite the fact that they're loved by a huge demographic, were being owned in the ratings because they're not intense or fast paced enough. What about the fact that B&M designs their rides to be accessible to everyone, but still exciting for thrill seekers? If someone did that with their own style in that round, they still would've been destroyed, even though the medium paced long float hills with only a little variation along the course are established in real life as being something so many people love.
The subjective opinion of the judge, with little-to-no consideration to the facts in the previous paragraph, said more intense rides were better in his ratings. How is that fair to anyone, or even fun when the ride you've worked so hard on gets destroyed because the judge doesn't like it for his own silly reasons?
For example in one of the first round, accurate B&M style rides, despite the fact that they're loved by a huge demographic, were being owned in the ratings because they're not intense or fast paced enough. What about the fact that B&M designs their rides to be accessible to everyone, but still exciting for thrill seekers? If someone did that with their own style in that round, they still would've been destroyed, even though the medium paced long float hills with only a little variation along the course are established in real life as being something so many people love.
The subjective opinion of the judge, with little-to-no consideration to the facts in the previous paragraph, said more intense rides were better in his ratings. How is that fair to anyone, or even fun when the ride you've worked so hard on gets destroyed because the judge doesn't like it for his own silly reasons?
Well for starters, I am allowed to have my own opinion. I never asked anybody to build are ride that should appeal to a demograpic. The ride should appeal to the builder and only the builder. I have some preference of my own, but I try to fair to anybody.
As for the first, B&M hyper round, everybody always complains about B&Ms not having enough airtime, for having repetative layouts. And considering how Intamin builds their hypers, the only thing the B&Ms do better are the restraints. But some of the contestants mimiced the B&M style to the letter and while I think they succeced in that point, they failed to make the ride kick-ass.
What is wrong with building the way you to build your coaster? Just because a company hasn't done something (yet) doesn't mean that it is impossible, unrealistic or wrong. I really hate the narrow-minded designs that a number of people make today. If you look back at the exchange you can see some of the old rides that did some crazy stuff. Some of those things where unrealistic and lethal, but there where also some great rides in there that had some guts.
I'm not saying that you can't use some builder's style. You should build with whatever style you are happy with. But don't expect that that if you use a certain style, you get a high score.
You ride will still be scored in Tech, Adren and Orig and if you manage to get a smooth, well supported, safe, fast, exciting, intense and original ride, you get a high score, regardless if you build it like a company would, or how you would do it.
When i build jet coaster I build them like jet coasters are suppose to be made. Same for classic out and backs.
Originally posted by dcs221
Guitarplayer gets me. Though, I wouldn't have used that example, because through careful study of SROS shaping, I don't think that was really the intention as much as it was a (sometimes positive, sometimes negative) side effect of their design technique at the time. But yes, all of what you said was exactly what I mean.
Guitarplayer gets me. Though, I wouldn't have used that example, because through careful study of SROS shaping, I don't think that was really the intention as much as it was a (sometimes positive, sometimes negative) side effect of their design technique at the time. But yes, all of what you said was exactly what I mean.
True...I feel like they maybe weren't able to change radius over a large enough distance to do a smooth parabola so what's there was the next best option. I think it's really cool either way though, I love finding stuff like that on rides.
Anyway, back to arguing about pointless stuff...
RCT, I hope when you say "you" in the first sentence, you don't mean me. lol. I'll assume that's the case unless you say otherwise. People in general don't achieve what they say they are doing when handbuilding either, so that won't make much of a difference.
There's a difference between copying a style and being unoriginal, and emulating a style while including realistic elements within that style. There's a fine line, but it can be done, and that's my goal in almost all my rides.
Hyyyper, who says B&M hypers don't have "enough" airtime? Enthusiasts? aka 1/10000 of 1% of the people who ride B&M hypers? Why do you think they consistently have lines are are still loved after up to or over 10 years of operation? Again, you're acting like to be "good" a ride has to be a mix of Voyage/I305/El Toro/Storm Runner, instead of one that satisfies the most people. Nitro, for example, is not a ride I'd consider overly intense or exceptionally exciting, but people love it and keep riding it. They like it for other reasons too...I've heard comments about the length being a factor in why some people like it more than say the more intense El Toro. Other people love that feeling of freefall more than being pressed against the lapbar. I think you think I'm being really closedminded, and in the process keeping your mind closed to only enthusiast or your own opinions.
There's a difference between copying a style and being unoriginal, and emulating a style while including realistic elements within that style. There's a fine line, but it can be done, and that's my goal in almost all my rides.
Hyyyper, who says B&M hypers don't have "enough" airtime? Enthusiasts? aka 1/10000 of 1% of the people who ride B&M hypers? Why do you think they consistently have lines are are still loved after up to or over 10 years of operation? Again, you're acting like to be "good" a ride has to be a mix of Voyage/I305/El Toro/Storm Runner, instead of one that satisfies the most people. Nitro, for example, is not a ride I'd consider overly intense or exceptionally exciting, but people love it and keep riding it. They like it for other reasons too...I've heard comments about the length being a factor in why some people like it more than say the more intense El Toro. Other people love that feeling of freefall more than being pressed against the lapbar. I think you think I'm being really closedminded, and in the process keeping your mind closed to only enthusiast or your own opinions.
^Yes I am talking about enthousiasts. I don't care what the general public thinks. I know that IRL, the GP is a huge, if not the only audience a ride is designed for.
But you know what? This aint the real world. And If I what a ride that has the airtime of SROS, the drop of Diamondback and the helix of SFMMs Goliath then why can't I do that?
And am not keeping my mind closed, merely focussed.
Besides, if I wanted the members to take the general public into consideration, I would have said some in the rules, and the G-limits would be stricter.
But it's getting late now, I'll be happy to continue this in the morning
[8D]
But you know what? This aint the real world. And If I what a ride that has the airtime of SROS, the drop of Diamondback and the helix of SFMMs Goliath then why can't I do that?
And am not keeping my mind closed, merely focussed.
Besides, if I wanted the members to take the general public into consideration, I would have said some in the rules, and the G-limits would be stricter.
But it's getting late now, I'll be happy to continue this in the morning
[8D]
Originally posted by dcs221
Hyyyper, who says B&M hypers don't have "enough" airtime? Enthusiasts? aka 1/10000 of 1% of the people who ride B&M hypers? Why do you think they consistently have lines are are still loved after up to or over 10 years of operation?
Hyyyper, who says B&M hypers don't have "enough" airtime? Enthusiasts? aka 1/10000 of 1% of the people who ride B&M hypers? Why do you think they consistently have lines are are still loved after up to or over 10 years of operation?
Lots of people play MW2, yet you cant call the game very good. Its because of the lack of marketing and other products why people love that game, not because its so damn good. Same goes for coasters imo.
I thought MW2 was very good for what I played (entire campaign, a few times per multiplayer maps)...why did it get so many great ratings if it isn't? What's your point? What does marketing have to do with NL in this current discussion?
Originally posted by dcs221
who says B&M hypers don't have "enough" airtime? Enthusiasts? aka 1/10000 of 1% of the people who ride B&M hypers? Why do you think they consistently have lines are are still loved after up to or over 10 years of operation? Again, you're acting like to be "good" a ride has to be a mix of Voyage/I305/El Toro/Storm Runner, instead of one that satisfies the most people. ...
...I think you think I'm being really closedminded, and in the process keeping your mind closed to only enthusiast or your own opinions.
who says B&M hypers don't have "enough" airtime? Enthusiasts? aka 1/10000 of 1% of the people who ride B&M hypers? Why do you think they consistently have lines are are still loved after up to or over 10 years of operation? Again, you're acting like to be "good" a ride has to be a mix of Voyage/I305/El Toro/Storm Runner, instead of one that satisfies the most people. ...
...I think you think I'm being really closedminded, and in the process keeping your mind closed to only enthusiast or your own opinions.
Now tell me, how many non-enthusiasts can you find on this site? None. All the rides we build, will only be ridden by enthusiasts. So why build a gentle ride, that would please everyone around the world... When they never will see the design? Let alone ride it...
We are enthusiasts so why not build something WE like to ride?
Coastercount: 1410 (I've seen the world and it's horrid contraptions... @.@)
- Wood: 142
- Steel: 1268
- Wood: 142
- Steel: 1268
Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't take all that much skill (hence why those type rides are more often than not the first ones people do when they get NL). It also should be established in the rules what kind of ride what kind of ride is in mind, because that's something real designers must have in mind when designing.
The way it's being run, the whole thing just seems like a big step backwards for NL coaster design. Thankfully it seems like the contestants are doing a pretty good job of not completely being submissive to the judge...though at the same time, you design for your target audience, and in this case it's changed to one person's interests, so as a good designer you should be able to cater to that audience as much as possible if you're in it to win it. A bit dumb to have to, especially considering the somewhat random nature of some of the decisions, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
The way it's being run, the whole thing just seems like a big step backwards for NL coaster design. Thankfully it seems like the contestants are doing a pretty good job of not completely being submissive to the judge...though at the same time, you design for your target audience, and in this case it's changed to one person's interests, so as a good designer you should be able to cater to that audience as much as possible if you're in it to win it. A bit dumb to have to, especially considering the somewhat random nature of some of the decisions, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Originally posted by cool5
When i build jet coaster I build them like jet coasters are suppose to be made. Same for classic out and backs.
When i build jet coaster I build them like jet coasters are suppose to be made. Same for classic out and backs.
The words of wisdom.
Originally posted by GerstlCrazy:
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
[blah][blah][blah][blah][blah][blah][blah][blah][blah][blah]
Can we please get back on topic.
YOU HAD A CHOICE TO ENTER THE CONTEST.
Nobody's forcing anyone to participate.
Opinions don't matter.
Rules are rules.
Judges are subjective.
We get the point.
Can we please get back on topic.
YOU HAD A CHOICE TO ENTER THE CONTEST.
Nobody's forcing anyone to participate.
Opinions don't matter.
Rules are rules.
Judges are subjective.
We get the point.
how did we get here from talking about the shaping of lewis13's helix?[dunno]
i say we should get back on topic[stoning]
i say we should get back on topic[stoning]
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Director, Structural Engineer - PEAK Amusements
Site Contest Judge (Supporting)
Chatroom Admin
Director, Structural Engineer - PEAK Amusements
Site Contest Judge (Supporting)
Chatroom Admin
What we should do is have a combination of judges scores and audience feedback, like competiton shows on tv nowadays.
Have the judges have their score count for half of the final score and have the audience (you guys) vote on each track for the score to make up the other half. Combine both together and you get the final score.
Have the judges have their score count for half of the final score and have the audience (you guys) vote on each track for the score to make up the other half. Combine both together and you get the final score.
Originally posted by GerstlCrazy:
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
^I doubt the results would be different, but it is certainly something we can look into next year.
It's just to please those complaining. I'm fine with what is setup now.
Originally posted by GerstlCrazy:
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
^ the problem with that is that pre-determined opinions and reputations of others preceed them and can skew ratings. The whole idea with the rating system this time round is that the judges opinion of the designer personally, is definitely negated.
You could probably still make the tracks anonymous to the raters initially, but with that many people riding them and rating them, people talk and the owner of each track would probably come out, I'm assuming.
Edit: although, thinking about it, if enough people rate the track, the anomalies in terms of the ratings by some individuals would be lost in the other ratings. It could be worked. If it was to be done that way, I think that ratings would be kept a secret until a ratings deadline, so that they couldn't be seen by other raters so that they didin't influence other ratings. Could work quite well actually, just a bit more organisation. But it would definitely stop the moaners.
You could probably still make the tracks anonymous to the raters initially, but with that many people riding them and rating them, people talk and the owner of each track would probably come out, I'm assuming.
Edit: although, thinking about it, if enough people rate the track, the anomalies in terms of the ratings by some individuals would be lost in the other ratings. It could be worked. If it was to be done that way, I think that ratings would be kept a secret until a ratings deadline, so that they couldn't be seen by other raters so that they didin't influence other ratings. Could work quite well actually, just a bit more organisation. But it would definitely stop the moaners.
Tree removal rules?
Originally posted by GerstlCrazy:
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
Originally posted by ianko66
Tree removal rules?
Tree removal rules?
Removal is allowed
Hyyyper, you really need to stop uploading contest tracks with improved friction unchecked...
Originally posted by GerstlCrazy:
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
The more time I spend on this website adds more to the impression that this has become a daycare.
yeah...that's what messed me up in round 1....>.>
Head Moderator
Director, Structural Engineer - PEAK Amusements
Site Contest Judge (Supporting)
Chatroom Admin
Director, Structural Engineer - PEAK Amusements
Site Contest Judge (Supporting)
Chatroom Admin
90 posts
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