Wooden roughness

So after having ridden about a gazzilion steel coasters, ive started to focus more on woodies since i havent ridden that many. The best Ive ridden so far is Gwazi, but all of them are very rough which is of course part of the fun. but i was wondering how rough by comparison are rides such as the voyage, el toro, and the new texas giant, or even the newer GCI's. Im really curious to see how newer technologies on wooden coasters stack up. has anyone ridden any of these rides? are they really smoother?

The technology, with the exception of pre-fabs, isn't what makes the coaster smooth it's how much care the park puts towards maintaining the ride.

Don't even get me started on how NTAG isn't a wooden roller coaster.

[hyyyper]

New Texas Giant is technically a steel coaster now.

Then, it depens on whether you rode Gwazi before or after it got the new Millennium Flyer trains.

El Toro is one of the smoothest coasters out there, Intamin's method of building makes it smoother than some steel coasters.
GCI makes very smooth coasters, ever since they started building with their Millennium Flyers in mind, every ride has been very smooth for a wooden coaster.
I have not ridden a Gravity Group design, but I've heard that are smooth the first few years, only to become increasingly rougher with every passing year.

u mean New Texas Giant? I prefer to think of it as a totally new breed of coaster. I dont think it is a wooden coaster, but I dont think it is a steel coaster either.

I have ridden gwazi before and after the new trains were installed, Im from florida. When it was running the old PTC trains if felt like about 600 mexican children beating you like a pinyata. Nowadays it feels rather comfortable, rough, out of control, but with only one or two spots of discomfort. Its still just as rough, its just no longer painful, and it runs a bit faster. Still im hoping other rides are smoother

I also love the blue streak at cedar point, which I feel is extremely underrated.

[hyyyper]

^Why wouldn't it be a steel coaster? It's track is pure steel, and although the supports are wooden, it doesn't affect the track (at least not by much).

There are also wooden coasters with steel supports, and they are also still wooden.


BTW, if you'd like to add something to a previous post, please use the edit-button instead of making multiple posts under each other.

oh ok ... thanks. I personally think that hybrid coasters and prefabs should have their own separate category, they perform differently than wood or steel. They have greater capabilities than wooden coasters do in the traditional sense.

A few things:

1) The edit button at the top of your posts is there for a reason [;)]

2) On NTG, the track is completely steel. Thus, it's a steel roller coaster.

3) @Bottom_feeder_13: I disagree with your statement that technology hasn't made woodies smoother. I would say it most certainly has. Companies are able to manufacture wood that it more precise than they have been able to in the past, and obviously the physical construction of it has improved greatly over the years. Mostly, though, is the actual design of the coasters. Where they used to be designed with a pen, paper, and abacus, they're now designed with the same software (or similar) as steel coasters. This means that designers can use more complicated math to make them as smooth as possible (theoretically, at least). So, while the actual construction methods may not have improved dramatically, the ideal smoothness of a woodie has, I would say, increased exponentially over the years as computers have advanced. I hope this makes sense...if not...well, I have homework so I won't be explaining it to you on here [:P]

4) About the GG comment; I went on RFII the year it opened, and it was very smooth. I also went on it the following year, and it was still very smooth. I don't know how quickly GG tracks deteriorate, but it's obviously not as fast as I was expecting. Thoughts?

I don't know much about Gravity Group, but Ive been doing a lot of research involving their construction methods, and according to the company, the use of steel supports allows the track to be shaped with more precision than wooden supports, and additionally allows it to better withstand the elements over time. I dont know how fast it actually deteriorates, but it seems that what they stated is logical. Ideas?

[hyyyper]

RFII is pretty new, so I think that one still has to much new-ness or something. The rides I was talking about were Hades and Boardwalk Bullet, and Voyage seems to be losing it's smoothness little by little.

Of course this is all just what I hear and read from other people, I have no way of confirming it.

The only way to confirm it is to go ride it. I do think that perhaps it has to do with the PTC trains. maybe the new timberliners will help resolve this issue in the same way the millenium flyers reduce wear and tear on GCI track?
Does RFII have timberliners?

The steel supports don't have the same give as wood supports. It's a trade off. Less of the structure has to be replaced over time, but the tracking gets beat up more.

Aside from the Intamins, there is no 'modern technology' going into building wood coasters, unless you consider circular saws and air nailers modern technology. They measure the board for the track, rough cut it to shape, nail it in place, and move onto the next. They do make more fine cuts as they add the steel plates obviously, but it is still done by hand. GCI just happens to have very skilled carpenters which along with the trains is why their rides come out so smooth, and they stay smooth because they don't cheap out on lumber like M&V does. M&V also doesn't know how to shape turns for poop which is why they get so rough quickly. Their valleys and are usually really good but turns always have jerks (very similar to NL pumps).

The trains play a big part too....Which is why parks are starting to replace PTC trains. They don't ride tight to the rails so you have 12 running wheels on each side with a lot of force behind them bouncing between the rails every 3-4 minutes. When the track isn't replaced when it should be, those spots will get worse (especially if the train has a tendency to hit the same spot) and form potholes. This gets increasingly worse with longer wheelbase cars which is why 3 bench trains aren't used much anymore, though that's another tradeoff as the two bench trains are stiffer (and again more wheels) whereas the longer cars tend to flex more. Good for some situations, not for others.

People tend to base 'woodie roughness' based on one ride at one time of the season, but that's generally not fair as there are so many variables with how 'rough' it actually is, way more than a steel coaster. It's not even fair to say one manufacture is rougher than another because the majority of this is up to the park itself and how they maintain the ride (adding new wood when needed, grease, etc). A wood coaster can give a completely different ride from morning to night, train to train, day to day, greased vs. dry, and that inconsistency is what makes them great IMO.

Edit: realized I contradicted myself with unfair to compare manufactures and I compared M&V to GCI, but whatever, I think both points are relevant for their respective topics.

wow that was incredibly enlightening. are you suggesting that the steel structure of hybrids actually makes the rides rougher? Its also curious how all of the newer GCI's are considerably smoother than theolder GCI's

Yes, the steel structure has much less give which is good for the structure (less bolt tightening and you don't have to replace wood) but bad for the tracks (the tracks need to flex to absorb some of the force from the train). Pretty much every steel structure wood coaster I can think of has had jack hammering/pothole problems early on, much earlier than their wood structured counterparts. Rule of thumb was (back in the CCI days, I don't know about now where they're really pushing shaping) you could get 7 years out of tracks on wood structured rides with proper maintenance, whereas steel are more like 3-4 (in valleys and high force turns.....hills aren't so bad).

Pretty much all of the M&V built-GG designed rides had had problems turns that had to be replaced very early on because like I said, they suck at making turns. Hades' turn by the station and Boardwalk Bullet's bay turn (among others) are notorious for this, check some old trip reports on RRC. You can see it pretty clearly (and at reasonable speed) on Zippin Pippins first turnaround if you're curious to see what it looks like. There I think it's slow enough where it will last (and it's not uncomfortable) but it is apparent. Yankee Cannonballs turnaround (which they rebuilt in 2003) is also a good example.

GCIs case is simply that their train design has improved a lot over time, their carpenters are very skilled, and they have gained a lot of experience with track shaping. Their new shaping is vastly different than say Roar's or Wildcat's.

or gwazi's for that matter. Another thing im wondering is how well the pre fab tracks are going to hold up over time. do you know if they ar going to get anyrougher?

[Coasterkidmwm]

Everything gets rougher over time.

The prefabs are a whole different animal. Technically they are wood, but they are made from composite like the stuff used for decking now. It's basically sawdust and glue mixed together to form a core, which is then glued in layers to form the track pile. That is then CNC (I assume laser) cut and formed into the track pieces. That stuff is completely water resistant and much stiffer than the pine 2x8s used on traditional wood coasters, so it should hold up much better in the long run. The shaping and tracking on these rides is far more calculated and precise so the weight/force distribution of the train is much more evenly spread along the structure, rather than with wood coasters where the track is taking a lot of the direct force and has to distribute on itself (this is why there are sometimes 2" gaps between boards, so they can flex and give; whereas the prefabs are more like a steel coaster where it will spread evenly throughout the track and supports). I'm not sure this explanation makes any sense because I'm having a hard time putting it into words, but from my understanding this is how it works.

I could see the prefabs getting rougher but probably in the same way steels do, where the wheels get worn/rattley. Should track have to be replaced on one of these, it's a series of pieces that interconnect rather than carpentering out a whole section from raw materials like on traditional wood coasters.

Im guessing that would be true... it just seems to me that the limits of wooden coasters are again being pushed, im wondering when another record breaker (hopefully successful, at least more so than son of beast) would be constructed.

The coasters at Mt. Olympus are extemely smooth now that they actually attach the rails to the ledgers.

Originally posted by Freddie

you could get 7 years out of tracks on wood structured rides

Or twice as long if you're Cedar Fair.

Originally posted by Jonny Richey

Or twice as long if you're Cedar Fair.

Or nearly triple if you're SFOT. I see either a really good or really bad future for Mean Streak (since we're sorta on the subject). It could get the NTG treatment, but I assume they won't because they probably want the "Coaster Capitol" title back.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Well at least they haven't resorted to "there we fixed it. Lets repaint it and call it a new ride" like SFMM did with X and Superman.

Originally posted by NoLimitzki

Originally posted by Jonny Richey

Or twice as long if you're Cedar Fair.

Or nearly triple if you're SFOT. I see either a really good or really bad future for Mean Streak (since we're sorta on the subject). It could get the NTG treatment, but I assume they won't because they probably want the "Coaster Capitol" title back.

It's Shivering Timbers I'm worried about..... it's very rough for a CCI.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

Well at least they haven't resorted to "there we fixed it. Lets repaint it and call it a new ride" like SFMM did with X and Superman.

Well, better than not fixing it at all....

That's one thing I'm glad they haven't done. Six Flags tends to over-advertise what should be necessary maintenance. I'd rather have Mean Streak rot than have it in a Six Flags park getting on-board audio, mist, and fire in a feeble attempt to get dumb people through the gates to pull them out of their $800+ million debt.