I saw The Passion of Christ today.

Don't take everything too serious.

Bino

thecool326, a lot of science is against religion, not all of it, but a lot. Take human evolution for example, that is tons of BS. Scientists believe it but Humans were on the Earth the same day every other living thing was.

If anyone doesn't believe me, read the first few pages of Genesis in the Bible, it explains the creation of the Earth.

Yeah, I am going to stay out of this stuff, but evolution as most believe it is one of the massivest loads of crap I've ever heard. Never even been half proven! Subject closed, diss on us if you want, we are right, and I can back that up with hundreds of scientists denying evolution and facts they have to prove it. So don't even try. Sorry that sounded mean....I am jsut quite adamante about this subject....so I won't say any more.

Originally posted by nightride

Yeah, I am going to stay out of this stuff, but evolution as most believe it is one of the massivest loads of crap I've ever heard. Never even been half proven! Subject closed, diss on us if you want, we are right, and I can back that up with hundreds of scientists denying evolution and facts they have to prove it. So don't even try. Sorry that sounded mean....I am jsut quite adamante about this subject....so I won't say any more.

Well, good thing you stayed out of it...[xx(]
You've got some pretty strong opinions there. I don't even know how to handle that kind of closed-mindedness. Let me just say that nothing in Genesis has never even been half proven either. Oh, and you don't have facts to disprove evolution. As for the "scientists" that don't believe it, they are for the most part religious fundamentalists that got a degree so that they could call themselves scientists and give more credibility to their beliefs. Bush has "scientists" that claim that global warming is false as well, even though the entire rest of the world knows that it's true.

To further contract you, evolution has been witnessed and documented. There was a light bark-colored moth in England that evolved into a darker color due to the smoke and soot produced during the Industrial revolution. The darker moths survived because they blended into the soot-covered trees better, and the lighter ones died out. Different levels of evolution have also been documented in strains of bacteria, plants, and mice, to name a few examples. The world is an ever-changing, dynamic system, and there is no way the creatures of earth could survive more than a few centuries without the ability to adapt to the changing environment.

The only reason people refuse to believe in evolution is because they will only believe the exact words of the Bible. Guess what? The Bible you have read has been translated at least three different times over 2000 years, so you simply cannot rely on word-for-word passages. I have already made my comments about this, so I won't repeat myself. Let me just point out that such a hardheaded and aggresive viewpoint often disguises insecurity and denial. It's as if you shout loud enough, it will make up for the lack of logic or ignorance of your words. How old are you by the way? I love how all these 13-year-olds go around acting like they've unlocked all the secrets of life...

[Oscar]

a note on the dark and light moths, they did not died out, they were eaten out as predators of them could not see the dark months on the dark colored barks due to pollution where the light ones were easily seen thus target was for them over the dark ones.

well ya know, i don't know how they made that movie, cause no one 'knows' what it was like back then. but i might see the movie

Well as arguing isn't my bag I will try to stay out of this but want to make at least one comment here, I think that RcTandy made a very intelligent statement for the most part. It is very well researched and thought out. Only problem is that this conversation will never quit evolving its like that mole that won't go away. But everyone will always have an opinion on it, which there is nothing wrong w/, so it will go on and on and on. . . . .

Originally posted by WeeWeeSlap

a note on the dark and light moths, they did not died out, they were eaten out as predators of them could not see the dark months on the dark colored barks due to pollution where the light ones were easily seen thus target was for them over the dark ones.

Yeah, should have clarified that, WWS. From an ecological standpoint, dying out due to predation and dying out due to other natural environmental pressures are basically the same thing. Predators and competitiors are probably the two biggest agents of evolution, besides long term climate change and tectonic movement.

Anyway, I was reading back over all this and have decided tht this is just more trouble than it's worth for me. There's no need to get all frustrated over all this when we don't really know each other. I did not come into this thread with the intention of saying 'this is wrong' or 'this is right.' I am just trying to get people to be more open-minded and to really think for themselves. However, the people who need this most are the people who aren't going to change just because some guy in an internet forum asked them to. We are here because we all love roller coasters. Let's remember that we all have this in common, and that we are all friends here. We can agree to disagree on the other stuff.[sillyme]

IMO You cant deny Charles Darwins theory of evolution. DNA from apes have a 98% match to that of a human. And would seem pretty logical that we evolved from a primate as such. And i dont see why people would say there is no such thing as evolution. Evolution is all around as is happening as we speak. The horse for example evolved from a 4 legged rodent like creature which was about 3 ft tall and walked on its hands and feet. Overtime the horse has had to adapt to run faster etc, now the horse is large and rather than walking on its hands, its walks on its toe. As the black leopard, its shown that the black leopard can survive a hell of alot better than an ordinary leopard in the jungle and in the near feature we will see more and more black leopards throughout jungle regions.
I just find it intrsting that people think that everything magicly appeared on Earth in severn days (something like that, i never read the bible, it burns me)
On the most part i agree with what RCTandy says

not all humans have evolved yaa know[^] and i also agreee with RCTandy too.

Sorry for starting something up. I guess I got demoted to 13 because I have the balls to say what I believe, though I am the opressed minority. Now I agree, we all come here for the coasters, thats the thing, and I'm a nice guy, with a few strong opinions. Honestly I am! Ask anyone on these boards thats met me in real life! I say this because what I am about to say will quite probably sound mean, but it is all in good fun.

RCTandy, you can go on believing that your exponentially great grandfather was an ape. The closest ape theyve found is just over half the size of a human, and bears about a 95% resemblence to an ape, and about a 20% resembelence to man. Honestly thats no proof at all for me. You might be a monkey, but I'm not.

Actually, I can prove much of Genesis, theres an organization I found researching it called the Institue for Creation Research. Basically they are a bunch of scientists that discovered that the evolution theory was a load of crap, and set out to tell the world their findings. They have disproven many parts of evolution(that I might add were never proven in the first place). Did I evolve from a sea creature because my blood and sea water both have salt in them? Come on now. Even the story of Noah and the ark has facts to back it up. The great "flood" has been proven, something mind you that evolutionists won't ever tell you, and what is quite probably some remains of the Ark have also been found.

Now one thing on a serious note. You called me hardheaded and 13. First off, I'm 16, and secondly, my parents didn't tell me to believe what I do. Nor did some pastor or preacher or priest. I found it out for myself. I don't claim to know everything. My knowledge only coes from a few years. Frankly, a few days was all I needed to get any doubt of what was right out of my mind. I got curious, so I looked for some unbiased information. Public schools don't teach it! TV doesn't teach it! But its out there. As with most of everything in life, true and honest invormation is hard to come by. Truth has always been the opressed minority.

Please, in the future, don't be such a hypocrit. My post wasn't kind, but neither was yours, RCTandy.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 9EC588EEDF
also
http://pages.emerson.edu/students/benja ... ience.html

RCTandy, you can go on believing that your exponentially great grandfather was an ape. The closest ape theyve found is just over half the size of a human, and bears about a 95% resemblence to an ape, and about a 20% resembelence to man. Honestly thats no proof at all for me. You might be a monkey, but I'm not.

You made no relation from human to primates rather human to bears? I think your avoiding the facts here. And its also documented that humans may not have came from apes, more of a modern version of a gorila. See links above

Evolution does not say that monkeys evolved into apes, which evolved into humans. That's not the way it works. What it tells us is that apes and humans have a common ancestor. Evolution is like a tree, with branches, rather than a straight road that goes from the "lowest" creatures to the "most advanced."

This is an ever-changing world. The seasons change, the weather changes, rivers change course, lands change from forest to fields and back again. Even the north star is not fixed in position. These are all things that anyone can go out and see for themselves. If God made a world full of such change, why would He not give life the ability to change as well? There is no concept I can think of more worthy of attributing to a supreme intelligence. It has only a few simple rules, but results in an astounding array of complexity and beauty. It humbles me far more than any hymn or written passage could.

I'll say it one more time, and then I'll shut up. The Bible and the word of the church are man's creation. Even if you think it is the voice of God, it is filtered through man and is thus tainted by his imperfections. If you want to learn about God, look at his creations directly - the natural world. Look at the way energy flows back and forth, and how everything works together as a single planetary organism. For instance, the seasonal cycle of ocean plankton in the northern hemisphere causes CO2 levels to rythmically rise and fall every year. The planet breathes!

Nightride, I apologize. I was unneccesarily harsh. It bothers me though that you feel that you decided your faith in the matter of a few days, and that you believe that a Creationist science website is going to be less biased than TV...do you have a link to it?

Never mind, I found it. Wow. Here's one of my favorite quotes so far:
"Evidence is available (in the form of human and dinosaur footprints in the same formation, of dinosaur pictographs left by primitive tribes in Africa and North America, and of the universally prevalent traditions of dragons among ancient peoples) that dinosaurs lived contemporaneously with early man."

So, you see dinosaurs must have lived up until Noah's flood, because that apparently created every single fossil in the fossil record. WTF?

Here's the link for anyone interested:
http://www.icr.org/bible/bhta43.html

Don't mean to make fun of you or anything nightride, but can't you see that some of this stuff is stretched pretty thin?

[Oscar]

Th e bible has many stuff in it that are lies in my opinion. Also the internet has many things that are lies. heck, i could be lying right now [;)] Like the foo above me said, just look at the world through your own eyes and figure out what you want to believe. Don't rely on the words of others as they can lie, and lie in good will or bad will. Meaning they might cover up horrendous pasts, for you to believe in X person or belief just so that they have more followers. Anyway, this topic seems to be getting out of hand, keep[ it in line, all of you or else it will be locked. I feel this topic is healthy discussion and is good to see the various stand points. Just don't go beating on someone about it verbally. Provide your comments without insults. As for the ape thing, I think we are somewhat related to the ape, as I see many people at work, act out as apes Freaking drunks.

RCTandy, I admit you have one great point in all of that. To look at God and creation through your own eyes. That is an important point. But another thing to think about is that we aren't God, and will never understand what he does, at least not on this side of the grave. Decided my beliefs in a few days? No. More like a few hours, to be honest. Nothing else makes even a fraction of sense to me, though I still am open if anyone can disprove what I believe in. It has yet to be done.

Anyway, I see you found the ICR place, and honestly, I don't see how its stretched very thin. I think biased is the wrong word to say. The mainstream media, and thought today rejects the Bible as a whole, as do they creation. In school for example, they say they "give you the facts and let you decide for yourself", when countless times I've gotten blatently wrong instruction, and have been forced into *believing* evolution, because, though they let us think for ourselves, and make our own decision*, they also somehow make it so that you fail a test on which evolution is taken as fact.

About the thing you put up there being "too hard to believe", well considering that most of us have been brainwashed, and yes I say brainwashed into believing what people want us to, I would expect it to be hard to believe. Frankly, I have never been able to believe evolution, even before I was "religious", it just doesn't add up. Facts have been grossly taken out of proportion, some added, and some taken away, to make the case they have. I am no scientist and I sure as heck don't know it all. But if people would take a little time out there to see someone elses viewpoint once in a while(which I am open to, again, if anyone can prove it), people might realize how stupid alot of what we take as fact is, not just in this case, but as a whole. Not calling anyone stupid!!!

Sorry for me being harsh too, I will keep it toned back from now on.

Sorry for double posting, but everyone, please do read the link that RCTandy posted.....it proves my point a thousand times over! And backs up what I was saying about evidence being "thrown out" that doesnt match what the evolutionists say. I am not coming out of the dark here people! And to my knowledge, the ICR has been around for quite a few years......they used to have a TV show on network back in the mid 90s, but it long since vanished.

as RCTandy said about the tree thingy....

[coolbeans326]

this topic lasted a lot longer than what I expected, go see The Passion of Christ, just because it's a good movie also.

Edge, that chart proves nothing. Its just a bunch of skulls.

[coolbeans326]

lol, i think he was just showing us a chart, just because he can.

on the topic of the jesus movie: its very accurate to the story, very very good, and it was the best made movie i've ever seen. very moving!

topic of noah's ark: all cultures have a great flood story so i wouldnt be surprised if something happened, also, there is archeological evidence that the black sea was not here 10,000 years ago. there was a low-lying area that was blocked off from the medeterranean by a very thin land-bridge thing right around modern istambul then around 10,000 yrs ago it collapsed, letting the medeterranean flood into the area now known as the black sea. this may be the start of some of the great flood myths. however, the length of "40 days and 40 nights of rain" is not true. that length of time is used in the bible to describe "a dam long time". in the book of exodus, the jews wondered in the desert for 40 years, that's another example of the time period "40".

and now creation: the bible claims that the world is just a little over 6000 years old, this of course is not ture because we well know there were civilizations in india and modern iraq at that time period. however, the bible-writers needed a time, and it seemed to work. now, here's my view: no, the world was not created just a little while ago, i belive in the archeological evidence and the big bang theory. however, i think that god made the big bang. how else would it have started? universes just dont pop out of nowhere randomly lol. so, i think that god set everything in motion and let evolution take over from there.

also: don't take the bible litterally, its stories have good morals, but most of them probably never happened. thinking you can translate the bible into so-called truth can lead up to very drastic views. also, the bible can be used to descriminate against everyone. in the civil war, it was used to show that blacks are lesser beings than whites, it has also been used to descriminate against jews, gays, women, muslims, "pagans", and just about every other social group out there. when in fact, if you read the stories, you can see that they are nothing more than a collection of stories with morals to follow. like the creation story: sin and you will be punished, so dont sin. saddam and gommorah: be hospitable and kind. exodus: dont descriminate. and there is always hope. in my opinion, bible stories are taken waaaay too seriously and should be understood as what they say, not what they might be implying.

wow, i got carried away a bit!! lol, im a bit touchy when it comes to religion.. but i hope i didnt offend anyone! [:)]

I believe that a supreme being had to create the beginning of the universe,time,life etc. Everything couldn't just exist. But as far as what actually went on or how is not concrete.As one person said above, the bible, scriptures,writings etc., have been written and said by humans for eons and eons,and thus been interpreted and re-interperted.So, I don't think even the pope knows for sure or the whole truth. The one thing that has not been changed for all these centuries is the fact that a God does exist, just the stories about him and his son have been told in many different ways. I haven't seen the movie yet but I want to see it. I want to see what all the controversy is about. And remember folks, it is just a movie with some peoples version of what they believe happend. None of us will know until we leave this earth. And everyone has a right to their beliefs or non-beliefs.
Miko

[Oscar]

Did you know that jesus was in fact a gangster? And that the apostles were also chief ringleaders of his gang? They were like the modern day crips and bloods, but with different intentions. Also judas was a snitch that penetrated the gang and got Jebus killed.

Anyway, back to reality. The chart edge posted just shows how our cranium skulls have evolved into what we have today. Prolly 4 million years from now our heads will be the shape of a square.

40 years walking in the desert. It takes about 6 years to walk aroud the Earth so im not sure what planet they were on

Btw in the bible does it say anything about all the continents being joined together at one stage etc etc?

been away on a trip without a computer so i havent been able to respond. I just want to say that everyone who is posting in here makes A LOT of sense, but people have to be open minded (as stated by others). I am a devout christian, and yes i was brought up that way, but now that i look back on my life, even though i am just 16, many things have happened that were not coincidences.
Still havent seen the movie, but i heard that its brutal and will bring a tear to your eye.
Anyway, rctandy, you make good points, but the way i see it, how do we know those documents of the scientific evidence are accurate? Just like, how do we know if the bible is really true? None of us were around when it was writen, and i am sure most of us dont go out and dig in the ground for fossils or we have a high power telescope in the mountains in which we can gaze at the stars.There is no way we can ever be 100% sure about anything that goes on in this world. Usually we just hear or read about it and accept it as truth. Unfortunantly, for those who believe in God, this means that we arnt totaly sure which way is right. When i say this, i mean look at all of the different denominations, they each use the bible, but they teach different beliefs. One controversial thing that one of my pastors have said that i am not sure of is, "Those of you who do not believe in Jesus Christ as your personal savior, if you were to get hit by a car right now, would you go to heaven of hell" According to him, the answer is hell, BUT what about Jewish people who dont Jesus is the messiah (savior), if they die will they go to heaven or hell? The bible says in the old testament that the Jews are the chosen people of God, so are all Jews going to hell? Also, i am skeptical about hell period. I know the second death, is the lake of fire, but that is the true hell, which comes after judgement day... so what happens to people when they really die?
To believe in heaven or hell or even reincarnation, you have to believe that people have souls, but there are people who say there is no soul, just your brain. yes we have brains, but is there somthing more?
BTW, i have studied evolution in class, and I dont believe it is complete BS, it makes sense, because in nature animals MUST adapt to their envoirment in order to survive, that is the whole purpose of animals, to reproduce and keep their species going, but we are humans. Gifted with advance thought and the ability to reason, is this an adaption to survive or was this brought about from the tree of knowledge?
The big band theory is a theory, in chemistry i learned a theory explains a law. Well, a law states that matter is neither added nor destroyed (conservation of mass) Unless that law is total BS, how did the universe form in the first place? The only answer, a supreme being that is omniscient and omnipotent. Its like saying, you cant have science without some sort of belief, neither can you have a belief without science, because the proof is out there, its just people can twist it around to proove what they want it to proove.
All if this is just to say that we cant be 100% sure about evolution or our beliefs. Those with beliefs have faith, those who take the words of scientist see it as the most intelligent and logical explination, therefore they believe it to be true. Beleive what you want, but remeber, we are all slowly dying, one day its going to happen and then either we will, or we wont know the truth