I saw The Passion of Christ today.

Originally posted by rctycoon112

Hmm, i have studied natural selection and i wonder how it applies to humanns, Could someone explain? Explain how our brains devoloped so much that we have all of this technology and what not, and we arnt living in the wild trying to survive? In other words, how does natural selection lead to modern day humans? Everyone in this post has beat around the bush, if this has turned to an evolution creationist debate, then someone tell me "How did we go from primative primates to "intelligent" beings?
Is it correct to say that we, today, are much more smarter than those humans from say the middle ages? Or are we smarter than those from the renaissance era? Did we just stop evolving or somthing? It seems that the humans of today are the same as the humans of the past.

The Bible said humans were created at the beginning as other animals were too, he created humans right after he created all the sea animals, land animals, etc. and then when he made humans he made them be like himself. The ability to have feelings and emotions and the ability to express them as well. THis is also further proof evolution didn't occur as well since the change between humans and apes is extremely huge.

[Oscar]

And still, you have yet to give me one half logical reason to believe evolution, all you are saying is twisting the truth around to fit your agenda. I can if you want get scieitific proof to discredit everything you have said on this thread, but I don't have all day. I will adress one thing though, just to prove my point.

I have yet to see one that seems logical for me from the people that are your side and have yet to see any proof against the scientific approach / stance these people are taking so once again, we are even.

[Oscar]

Hmm, i have studied natural selection and i wonder how it applies to humanns, Could someone explain? Explain how our brains devoloped so much that we have all of this technology and what not, and we arnt living in the wild trying to survive? In other words, how does natural selection lead to modern day humans? Everyone in this post has beat around the bush, if this has turned to an evolution creationist debate, then someone tell me "How did we go from primative primates to "intelligent" beings?

by us being lazy. We don't like to work, let's face it. So we as primates started "thinking" of ways to make our daily lives easier. We no longer wanted to chase stuff for food, so we laid traps, we as well ate fruits, vegetables, p[lants etc. We hated getting wet by water of the rain so we would go under stuff, then figured that maybe we can set stuff up to be there permanently, say banana leaves or hays or something and put it above something so we just go under it. We then went on thinking and created a form of communication. Which has since evolved into hundreds of other languages. It did not occur at one sole place and spread rather it happened at many different places at near times. man has evolved from it's primate state to what it is now cuz man no longer needed lots amounts of hair to keep warm as it had found warmth by fire, the genes got manipulated over time and the hair went away and kept only where needed. I'll write more later...
I got to go, time to go see ma girls I am in the process of evolution so I got to go out and evolutionate [?]
WWS

Originally posted by IntaminFan397
The ability to have feelings and emotions and the ability to express them as well. THis is also further proof evolution didn't occur as well since the change between humans and apes is extremely huge.

It is not as huge as you may think...anyone with a dog can tell you that even they have emotions, such as shame, fear, and loneliness. Primates are even more advanced than this. They have complex social structures and "cultural" behaviors that are passed down from generation to generation. Gorillas have been taught sign language, and they not only sign complete sentences, they also combine the words they know to refer to other objects, such as signing "fire" and "cirlce" together when they see the sun. In addition, when they refer to things in the past, they point ahead of them, but when they refer to the future, they point behind, because they can see the past, but not the future. This shows capacity both for original thought and abstract thinking. People think that admitting that these animals are our relatives somehow "brings us down to their level." I see the opposite, that this evidence shows that apes are far more sophisticated and deserving of our respect than the average person realizes.

Everyone in this post has beat around the bush, if this has turned to an evolution creationist debate, then someone tell me "How did we go from primative primates to "intelligent" beings?

I am not going to claim that science has completely explained the process by which humans arose. I will give you my thoughts, though, which are grounded in what we have learned so far about natural selection pressures. We have observed that chimpanzees "fish" for termites with sticks. Not just any stick off the ground, but one that is chosen specifically for its length and shape, then stripped of its bark and leaves. This shows the capacity for not only using tools, but for making them as well. Our ancestors probably used tools like this, but became more proficient. At some point, probably not that much father along than where chimps are today, the benefits gained by using tools became a distinct reproductive advantage over those of the same species that were less able to use tools. Now it was the smartest individuals that were the most successful rather than the biggest or strongest. This was a tipping point in our evolution, because for the first time, a creature began to manipulate its environment to suit it rather than adapting to existing conditions. This made intelligence the most successful adaptation, and thus it was selected for in following generations.
As for how much we have changed since we became Homo sapiens, I would say very little, if at all. Cro-Magnon men had probably the same capacity for thought and reason that we do now. Once civilization arose, practically all natural selective evolutionary forces had very little impact on survival, because we can maintain a stable environment and we do not need to adapt to new conditions. Also, it simply hasn't been long enough since, say the Renaissance, for evolution to act. We have much more information, of course, thanks to our culture and language, but biologically we are the same as late cavemen.

You also obviously don't know that natural selection isn't the exact same thing as evolution. Evolution is the false idea that a living form of life changes into a completely different one over time. Natural Selection is the ability for an organism to adapt to it's surroundings.

natural selection
n.
The process in nature by which, according to Darwin's theory of evolution, only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated - http://www.dictionary.com

The human immune system (the MHC complex)...blah blah blah

Of course, he says he has proven his ideas, but how? He cites "a study." Which study? He makes all these claims that he has solved all the inconsistencies, but can't seem to ever tell us how he did it...
Besides, mitochondrial DNA can only be explained by evolution. 3 billion years ago, one bacteria ate another bacteria, but didn't digest it. They worked together, and eukaryotic cells were born, which went on to evolve into plants, animals, etc. It is the only explination as to why a cellular organelle would have its own DNA. Intelligent Design's only defense is that famous line, "God works in mysterious ways."
And didn't you hear me the first time? There are over 1 million different species of animals. One species cannot breed with another species because they are genetically incompatible. They are not slight variants. Different races of humans can still make fertile offspring, so they are the same species. You are just pulling this out of the air, because there is no dispute over this.

You seem to think that there is some kind of conspiracy between scientists and the public school system to spread lies about true science. What would be our motive to do this? Do you think we deliberately set out to disprove the Bible? That is just paranoid. We simply try to explain the truth with what we see. 95% of scientific studies never get published because they do not meet the rigorous requirements of the scientific community. We are not all "in league" to spread lies and serve Satan. The majority of Americans are Christian. Our president has the full support of the right-wing Christian Coalition. Mississippi just ruled that the Ten Commandments can be posted in public buildings (that were paid for by people of all religions). Believe me, Christians are far from a suppressed minority in this country.

Did I say there was a conspiracy? Even if I had, its not far from teh truth! Just for the record, if you aren't working for God, you are working for satan....just a little bit of heads up there.....

The term Christian is so loosely used today. I am in no way anything like the mass "Christians" in america. They claim to be christian because their parents took them to church a cuople of times, or they read a bible verse when they were a kid. I have about as much in common with the common "christian" as I do with the apes! I guess you could call me extreme in my beliefs, but only because I see the state of the world, and I try to go out there and make a difference. Anyway, that was off topic, but yeah.

And in truth, science is "out to get" the Bible. The Bible is teh only thing standing in the way of the twisted around beliefs of evolution! Well the Bible, and the fact that 95% of science backs up what the Bible says....

I honestly don't know what else to say, whatever I say, my words are twisted around and any tiny inconsistancy is magnified into the omega reason to believe what you are saying rather then what I am saying. But I will go on...

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-273.htm This link, which you say makes no sense, singlehandedly explains awayevery single thing you have said about the flood, and your saying "its too hard to believe" is just your last ditch responce. sorry if I again sound harsh, but this alone(having of course not read his book) is very true. And it is certainly more believable then a natural selection that would have taken many times longer then the earth existed for, according to YOUR dates and ages of the eartyh.....

If the only thing you have to "disprove" creaton is saying that "its too hard to believe", then I think I rest my case....

OH, about SMer's comment....it makes perfect sense...he just lacked to explain, so let me do so(taking the liberty to put words in his mouth).

Religion is a orginazation or whatnot set up by man, with man's usually corrupt spin put on God, and what he wants us to believe. Not dissing on anything, but making a point, according to the branch of catholosism my mom belonged to, you had to go to confession and confess to a preist if you committed a large sin. Now it says nothing of this in the bible. Also says nothing of being baptised as a baby making you go to heaven. You want to put your trust in a splash of water when you weren't even 1 yet? The point I am trying to make is that religion nowadays is a term associated with anything nonscientific in belief. I do not believe in any religion, and am pretty anti-religion as a whole. I believe only what God has led me to believe, and what he has told me. If you want to put a "religious catagory" with what I believe, call me a Baptist I guess. They don't believe at all in religion(every group has its outlyers), only in the bible, and what God tells them to do. Hope that clears it up.

It is not as huge as you may think...anyone with a dog can tell you that even they have emotions, such as shame, fear, and loneliness. Primates are even more advanced than this. They have complex social structures and "cultural" behaviors that are passed down from generation to generation. Gorillas have been taught sign language, and they not only sign complete sentences, they also combine the words they know to refer to other objects, such as signing "fire" and "cirlce" together when they see the sun. In addition, when they refer to things in the past, they point ahead of them, but when they refer to the future, they point behind, because they can see the past, but not the future. This shows capacity both for original thought and abstract thinking. People think that admitting that these animals are our relatives somehow "brings us down to their level." I see the opposite, that this evidence shows that apes are far more sophisticated and deserving of our respect than the average person realizes.

Dogs react a lot more like animals though. I don't understand where your trying to go with that, because evolutionists think we evolved from apes, not dogs [;)]

I really don't care that monkeys or gorillas can understand basic sign language, animals do have intellegence, but only enough to understand basic things in comparison with humans. Anyone can tell that Gorillas, Apes, etc. are WAY closer to other animals than they are of humans. The fact that their body structure is similiar to ours proves nothing, since tons of animals have 2 arms, 2 legs, and everything basicly that we have. They just use them a little different, but there is definitely a change from going from an ape to an intellegent human.

natural selection
n.
The process in nature by which, according to Darwin's theory of evolution, only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated - www.dictionary.com

Tell me one thing why that definition is the same thing that evolution is. Really, I'd love to know, as I see no relation to it at all. Just because they mentioned Darwin's theory they never mentioned that natural selection was related to evolving into a new organism in any way.

Of course, he says he has proven his ideas, but how? He cites "a study." Which study? He makes all these claims that he has solved all the inconsistencies, but can't seem to ever tell us how he did it...
Besides, mitochondrial DNA can only be explained by evolution. 3 billion years ago, one bacteria ate another bacteria, but didn't digest it. They worked together, and eukaryotic cells were born, which went on to evolve into plants, animals, etc. It is the only explination as to why a cellular organelle would have its own DNA. Intelligent Design's only defense is that famous line, "God works in mysterious ways."
And didn't you hear me the first time? There are over 1 million different species of animals. One species cannot breed with another species because they are genetically incompatible. They are not slight variants. Different races of humans can still make fertile offspring, so they are the same species. You are just pulling this out of the air, because there is no dispute over this.

Oh, theres plenty of proof. Pay attention to what he and all the over 1,000 Creationist scientists say and it is very logical. I also see no evidence of any Evolutionist stuff being true. And what does that miochondria thing you said prove anything? I find it quite hilarious that people pull these ideas out of nowhere and say that these things happened 3 million years ago and say its proven.

You seem to think that there is some kind of conspiracy between scientists and the public school system to spread lies about true science. What would be our motive to do this? Do you think we deliberately set out to disprove the Bible? That is just paranoid. We simply try to explain the truth with what we see. 95% of scientific studies never get published because they do not meet the rigorous requirements of the scientific community. We are not all "in league" to spread lies and serve Satan. The majority of Americans are Christian. Our president has the full support of the right-wing Christian Coalition. Mississippi just ruled that the Ten Commandments can be posted in public buildings (that were paid for by people of all religions). Believe me, Christians are far from a suppressed minority in this country.

You explain what you see and observe....thats why Evolutionists have all these theories and never prove them? The theories most of them have also make no sense and have been explained why they were wrong by other scientests that actually know the truth. I don't think theres a conspiracy, and I don't know why you think that I did, but when Evolutionists go and say all this crap and Creationist Scientists and Bible say that its wrong, they ignore the facts and make people believe things their way.

I think he thinks I am the paranoid one......

but in all of what he just said, "amen, brother".

The fact that we are so different from any animal so many times over is in itself enough to convince logic that we didn't come from them....unless you have found that elisive "missing link"....though I think you need about 100 missing links to fill the gap suffiently if not more.

No offense plese.

[Oscar]

Just for the record, if you aren't working for God, you are working for satan....just a little bit of heads up there.....

Then you belong to a website that is ran by people who are working for Satan. Not to be mean but that commen is just serious bull poop. I can chose who to work for. I don't work for neither. I work for me, my own beliefs. I don't belief in a religion, no sense in believing one because if I did, I would be dammned to hell by being a hypocritical person by directly doing the opposite of what "Jebus or God" said, "love one another". Religions hate and battle other religions. There is hate in it and that makes one hypocritical if one is to say I believe in this religion's teachings and beliefs and hate and oppose the ideas, beliefs and teachings of this other religion. Everyone is a sinner here. Everyone has killed a fly, killed an ant, killed a spider... murder is a major sin, so I've heard anyway. Take life graciously and live it to your maximum potential. But do not go to places saying this and that about God when you in fact are opposed to other religions teachings. If one is to be religious and belief in the word of God, disregard then the teachings of all Churches and love everyone. Accept their opinions and thoughts of the world, religion, politics and stuff and move on. Also, who here has not desired the woman of another? I am sure many here have desired the woman that another person has, that is as well a sin as dictated by the holy bible.
I am a sinner, I am aware of it and continue to do it. Will I go to hell? No, why? Because the goods that I have done outweigh the bad ones. That si my believe in heaven and hell, yet I question if there is a heaven and a hell. There is no proof of it's existence, is there now? Much more I believe in reincarnation or the death of the soul upon bodily death for it is possible that one cannot exist without the other.

Im split on my opinion on the religion. I am religious (catholic i think, lol). Anyways, thats not the point. In my opinion, it is nearly impossible to discuss the fact from fiction. The reason i say is that i grew up with my parents teaching me this stuff and sending me to a catholic school. I believed what they said. I also believed that Santa Claus is real. It is a world-wide lie going on. So how do i know that this is not a world-wide lie as well? I dont. This brings me to the point of Faith. The point of faith right now IMO is to keep the humans from being bad people when the authorities werent watching. The whole fact that the church would condem people becuaes they contradicted readings in the bible is absurd IMO. Example: Copernicus contradicted the much believed theroey from Aristotle and Plteomy that the earth was the center of the earth. However, Galileo Galile continues with this theroy. He said to the church: I am merely using the senses that god gave me, my sight to observe. However, why would god give us these senses if he did not want us to learn? With this statemnet from him brings much truth. The church is preventing "God's" creations from using "his" gifts. I am leaving this post open-ended becuase my life is not over so i cannot form a final conclusion on my thoughts just yet.

Ok, this will be my last responce here, as it seems to only be causing hate and division.

My comment about working for God or the Devil stands directly in what I believe. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem, so to speak. Now that doesnt the heck mean that I hate anyone! The bible teaches to love one another, even your enemies. Youall aren't my enemies to my knowledge, just to set that straight. According to waht I believe, it is loving one another to try to get the people to see the truth in darkness, but I am not God, and evidently I stink at doing that. I am not one of those "oh look I'm happy the world is a great place lets all be gushy and hug each oother" people. Personally, I see a major problem in this world, in America in preticular, and I set out to try to make any tiny difference I can. If you think I believe this stuff because I want to, thats a load of crud. Why would I want to be looked down upon by most people? et hated at by most everyone? I think youall need to realize that I am not trying to start fights. I would easily die for what I believe in, because I believe it is true. Youall, WWS in preticular are hating at me for stating what I believe. Now you state what you believe, which is enormously offensive to me, but do I go off at you? I believe with all of my heart that if you aren't working for God, you are working for the devil. There is no middle ground in the battle of right and wrong. Youall saywhatever you want to about me, ban me if you wish. I tried to explain my viewpoint, and as I said in one of my first posts, I thought you would hate and diss at me(or something along those lines), and was I not correct?

The torch is out of my hands. As I said before, this nation is anti what I beileve, being the Bible, which was just made obvious by our friend WWS. I am again not dissing on anyone, but just trying to make a point.

WWS, hoenstly, its your choice, but I'd think long and hard about what you are trusting on to get you into a perfect heaven with a perfect God, when as you said, none of us are perfect.....Remember our friend Jesus, yeah, its got a bit to do with him....

Death and what happen's after death does not bother me at all. Like were all gonna die, and i sure as hell aint going waste my life on Earth sucking up to some "God" which probaly aint real anyway. Also what would everyone do if the bible was written by Satan himself...oh man that would be cool. Lets face it some guy over in (whereever jebus was born) got rich after writing a book to his darling wife (the bible) which got intercepted and sold on (like in futurama) Hell i dont even know what im typing anymore, and im using the word 'hell' accesivly

I guess we will just have to wait and see what is right then.

Originally posted by The Edge

Death and what happen's after death does not bother me at all. Like were all gonna die, and i sure as hell aint going waste my life on Earth sucking up to some "God" which probaly aint real anyway. Also what would everyone do if the bible was written by Satan himself...oh man that would be cool. Lets face it some guy over in (whereever jebus was born) got rich after writing a book to his darling wife (the bible) which got intercepted and sold on (like in futurama) Hell i dont even know what im typing anymore, and im using the word 'hell' accesivly

Your choice then, but just be forewarned that you will regret what you did in your life, since Hell is for eternity...

What you think how the Bible was written is a lot of nonsense. the Bible was started a few thousand years before Jesus was on Earth, and it was finished after Jesus told us about God's kingdom and how we should live our lives. Even if your an atheist, theres plenty of historical evidence that tells us when and how the Bible was written.

[Oscar]

Youall, WWS in preticular are hating at me for stating what I believe. Now you state what you believe, which is enormously offensive to me, but do I go off at you? I believe with all of my heart that if you aren't working for God, you are working for the devil. There is no middle ground in the battle of right and wrong. Youall saywhatever you want to about me, ban me if you wish. I tried to explain my viewpoint, and as I said in one of my first posts, I thought you would hate and diss at me(or something along those lines), and was I not correct?

The torch is out of my hands. As I said before, this nation is anti what I beileve, being the Bible, which was just made obvious by our friend WWS. I am again not dissing on anyone, but just trying to make a point.

WWS, hoenstly, its your choice, but I'd think long and hard about what you are trusting on to get you into a perfect heaven with a perfect God, when as you said, none of us are perfect.....Remember our friend Jesus, yeah, its got a bit to do with him....

I am not hating. I am posting my opinion as you are here. No one is getting banned here, this is a topic of discussion to be discussed and it is understood, by me at least, that therer will be strong opinions from people from all sides of this. I ahve read this entire topics and have found many of the things here offensive to me. There is a middle ground. It's called leading life without worrying about the battle between good and evil. I do not work for the devil, I do not work for God as stated in my post above. I have not come to hate anyone here, I have come to know more about you, everyone who has posted here. I have come to see how to deal with you people in other situations. Also, about you believing with all your heart that if X person does not work for God then X person is most definately working for the devil. Well, as you have your opinions, I have mine. As your opinions literally are calling mine BS, some of my opinions are calling some of yours BS. Look, I did not reply to this topic to start a war amongst members, I knew what kind of arguments this topic would bring right when it was posted. I replied to this topic to see what other factual replies I can get to learn about this touchy subject, not to get people pist off at me, which seems like this topic will do anyway. Seems like we're alls tubborn and wont accept people with their beliefs and intentions. Oh well, go figure, and no, you are not being banned. Would be a stupid reason to do so, now if you belonged to some other sites that i know of, they would have done so already. In this site you are free to argue, even against the admins. That is my belief.

About the death thing, a philisopher once said: "We should not be concerened with death. While living, death is not present. Therefore, we have nothing to fear. When we die, we are not existant, so therefore, we cannot experince death. Hence, we shouldnt fear death."

at IF subliminaly telling me to go to hell.

as a philisopher once said: "We should not be concerened with death. While living, death is not present. Therefore, we have nothing to fear. When we die, we are not existant, so therefore, we cannot experince death. Hence, we shouldnt fear death."

Amen To That

It seems to me that the main theme around this topic is "What If". What if God doesnt exist and we have all waisted our time going to church and believing in somthing that isnt real. Or what if He is real and all of those who dont believe go to hell for eternity? What if evolution is the right, what if creationism is right? What if we saw the movie and liked it, what if we saw the movie and didnt like it?[:p]
Anyway, will we ever know the truth? I have chosen the path to follow in my life, and others have chosen theirs. It is their desicion not to deviate from it either, we are all different and shoule respect other peoples opinions and try not to insult anyone in anyway. Those of you who are Christians, or follow any kind of religion, keep on believing in what you believe in for after a certain while your religion will become a part of you, and you a part of it. Those who dont believe in anything, just keep living life day by day, so should everyone else. In my opinion this topic has deviated greatly from its title. Those who are for evolution, you arnt going to convince creationist that evolution is correct, and those of you who are for creationism, you arnt going to convince evolutionist that creationism is correct. This debate could go on forever, and there will be no winner as we cannot see into the past and will never be 100% certain on what exactly happened, this debate really should end now. Thats all i have to say, hope you guys havent made any enemies from a topic that was supposed to be about a movie
-Rctycoon

hope you guys havent made any enemies from a topic that was supposed to be about a movie

Hey it's all good man, we all just have different opinions. I think I'm done here as well. I've made the points I wanted to make, and we really aren't getting anywhere here. It was a fun exercise though[|)] Thanks WWS for not shutting it down. I guess free speech does work after all...

intaminfan: you said that the moth thing isnt evolution? of course it is! there was a very small genetic change in the animal to make it change color, duh it isnt a new species but if you make small changes a thousand times over, you have a completely new form of life. and you said that the bible says humans were created just after the other animals and that's more proof that evolution didnt happen?? first off, there isnt any proof of that story other than what is in the bible, and second, its a book! do you belive everything you read?! yes its the bible, the single most sold book in history. but stuff and thinking like that can be dangerous. have you ever wondered what book is number 2 most popular in history? Mein Kampft by Adolph Hitler. now, i'm in no way comparing the bible 2 hitler, but you see, its only a piece of liturature. yes the stories can teach you stuff, but that doesnt mean they actually happened. however, not all the bible is made up.. stories like "exodus" have historical proof and WRITTEN ACCOUNTS in OTHER sources than the bible.

jack and jill went up a hill.. now, if you just belive that as is, thats fine.. not wise, but fine by me. i take that as a regular story like the ones in the bible. now, if someone said jack and jill went up that hill over there in 1994 and we have video of it, then i'll belive it. untill there's some sort of proof, they're no more true than random farie tales.

p.s. the thing you said about gorillas and other apes being closer to other animals.. 98% of a chimp's DNA is IDENTICAL to ours. or at least that's what the science channel told me last night.

Originally posted by coaster992001

intaminfan: you said that the moth thing isnt evolution? of course it is! there was a very small genetic change in the animal to make it change color, duh it isnt a new species but if you make small changes a thousand times over, you have a completely new form of life. and you said that the bible says humans were created just after the other animals and that's more proof that evolution didnt happen?? first off, there isnt any proof of that story other than what is in the bible, and second, its a book! do you belive everything you read?! yes its the bible, the single most sold book in history. but stuff and thinking like that can be dangerous. have you ever wondered what book is number 2 most popular in history? Mein Kampft by Adolph Hitler. now, i'm in no way comparing the bible 2 hitler, but you see, its only a piece of liturature. yes the stories can teach you stuff, but that doesnt mean they actually happened. however, not all the bible is made up.. stories like "exodus" have historical proof and WRITTEN ACCOUNTS in OTHER sources than the bible.

jack and jill went up a hill.. now, if you just belive that as is, thats fine.. not wise, but fine by me. i take that as a regular story like the ones in the bible. now, if someone said jack and jill went up that hill over there in 1994 and we have video of it, then i'll belive it. untill there's some sort of proof, they're no more true than random farie tales.

p.s. the thing you said about gorillas and other apes being closer to other animals.. 98% of a chimp's DNA is IDENTICAL to ours. or at least that's what the science channel told me last night.

A lot of people havn't heard the true story of the Peppered Moth. The Evolutionists who have heard it reject it because it doesn't go with their theory...shows how closed-minded they are.

The Peppered Moth throughout existance has had a light grey color and a dark grey color - this is the same difference in genetics as human eye color variation. Well, anyways, there became less and less dark grey colored Peppered moths because the birds saw them standing out from the trees. After all the soot came along from the factories and deposited onto the trees, the lighter grey moths were more easily seen by the birds, and the darker colored moths blended into the trees better because of the soot. So now that this happened, the population difference between the light colored moths and dark colored moths reversed since the birds started to eat more light colored moths. When the dark colored moths became 90% of the Peppered moth population people were misguided into thinking that the light colored ones evolved into the darker colored ones, thus a false idea that supported evolution spread, and thats why a lot of people think that the peppered moths volved even though they really didn't.

If you think that a difference in color of a species means its a completely difference species, seek help. What you have stated in your post was the exact same as saying that different races are all different species, and every person with a different eye color is a different species. The ONLY difference about skin color is the amount of melanin that is in skin, every other characteristic about humans is the EXACT SAME.

About trusting the Bible, I think that you should know that mostly every single thing involving creation that it states has been proven to be true. I don't trust just any literature. if I did, then I would believe my Earth Science textbook, wouldn't I? I only believe the truth.

I would like to also mention that I have no doubts that the DNA of apes is 98% identical to ours. But enlighten me, tell me one reason why that supports the theory of evolution. All living things have cells, right? Does that mean that we evolved from every single creature because we all have cells? You also havn't found out that scientific TV and teachings most of the time only tell things that support their theories. Creationists have proved that a lot of what Evolutionists find to be evidence of evoltuion wrong most of the time...like what I said about the peppered moth for example. If you want to know what the truth is, then don't just believe everything you hear on scientific TV or literature, think to yourself if it is logical or if there are any other reasons that prove that what "evidence" they found was actually not really evidence at all. Thats what I did and I discovered whats right.

Ok, weeweeslap, I thank you for saying what you did in your last post. You had convinced me that you were fed up with me, and wanted me gone, so I was going to go. Well I will say this then.

The last paragraph of what intaminfan just said basically explains teh problem creationists have. Much of what information is out there has been twisted around over the years to suit evolotion, as it was that or creation, and many have a predisposed bias against anything having to do with a higher power. The facts that you will hear on 99% of TV shows, or in school textbooks arent the whole story, but fragments, picked and chosen here and there to suit their cause. Now I am not saying you do this, I am saying you are throwiong incomplete and in most cases false information at us, not knowing you are doing it! To everything you have said so far, us, the creationists have come up with a logical explination, that only in a few cases have you been able to refute, just look back through the posts. The facts do side in our direstion heavily, and considering tehre are only 2 of us diligently on this side(as in taking time to get some facts and stuff), and many more on yours, thats pretty good if you ask me.

It kind of boils down to here, to use an analogy, a court case. Two sides, both with stories. The story of one side has been grossly twisted around, sometimes even unknowingly, and the other side is telling the truth. Well how does the uneducated eye tell the difference? Honestly it rarely does, which is why the general person is of a "whatever" mode to this subject, and if they lean any way they usually lean toward evolution, as it is what is the much more accepted view. Intaminfan and I have presented you with the clearest most honest facts I think you will find on the internet, even ICR, which you can call heavily biased all you want, is made up of good, honest, hard working people, that are out there solely to get the truth out. now we can debate the credibility of ICR all night, so lets not, but who are you going to believe? A science show owned by a decisively anti-bible media? I hoenstly don't want my beliefs based on what mainstream America is telling me to beileve! Mainstream America has not made the best of choices....need I say any more.

Ah well too late, get back to this tommorrow then, since at least WWS says he doesn't hate me.

Oh, I have a great article about the moth thing....Iwill find it tomarrow, too....tired.....

ok, IF, of course the living moths didnt evolve! they can't once they're born.. evolution is the gradual change over hundreds of generations. and i said that they eventually would become a different species. i did not say that they already were one. and what in the creation story has been prooven to be true? where is your evidence? just saying its true doesnt make it true. as for the chimps dna being 98% identical, i did not say that we evolved from them or anything, i just said that to show you that they're more like us than you think.

also, your making it sound that the theory of evolution says that an animal changes in its lifetime, wich is just rediculous. small mutations occur from generation to generation and over hundreds of generations, the animal looks a lot different than it's great great great (and so on) ancestors. also, with the thing about different races of humans:
YES they are different in terms of evolution. NO they are not a different species yet. if you give a group a long long time of isolation they will change over many generations. an example of this would be (not to offent anyone) the english. they were virtually stuck on that island for thousands of years, and (the royal family in particular) started to have changing features. bigger ears, longer faces, bigger noses.. its not a bad thing at all, just an example of how our species is changing even as we speak.

also, how do you think we got soo many kinds of dogs? they all werent already here. farmers, hunters, etc bred the dogs to have certain traits untill they'd get an entirly diferent species of dog. of course it didnt happen in one, two or three lifetimes, but it did happen. why do you think sheepdogs are called that? they were bred so they had the traits to do their job well.

[Oscar]

you know what, mnaybe aliens made us in test tub es and threw us into this planet and are studying us to see how we debate on our origins. Maybe one day they'll show up and tell us everything. Aliens do exists, they have the means to do so as we have the means to send satellites and now rovers to other planets. The Alien species, if it exists, may be much older in existance and much more advanced in their technology to have the capability to survive high g forces to travel light years in a matter of minutes. I for one do think Aliens do exist, mainly for a real life event that occured to me once when in Mexico in some old famous ruins late at night. and yeah nightride, I don't hate you. you're more than welcomed on this site, I have respect for you as you have the guts to stand up for your ideas and beliefs as I do. As for taking the time for gathering evidence and posting it, I simply don't have the time. I work many hours of the day, I go to school several hours of the day, I have a mock trial I am preparing for Monday, I have a midterm Monday, Tuesday and Thirsday next week. I have 3 speeches top give on Wednesday. As you see, my schedule is too busy to even attempt to search for info, but if I did, I am confident I would find information that wouyld back up my beliefs as you have found to back up yours. Both sides have good arguments and good evidenc to support both sides. It's a matter of time to look it up, which i personally don't have. Also am busy fixing this site up for an evolution that is to come to conform to suit the needs of the visitors here.

the single most sold book in history

Actualy Harry Potter is the most sold book in history, so maybe harry potter is a religion?

Originally posted by IntaminFan397

A lot of people haven't heard the true story of the Peppered Moth. The Evolutionists who have heard it reject it because it doesn't go with their theory...shows how closed-minded they are.

I completely agree with the fact that the dark and light variants of the peppered moth existed as a single species. The point of the story is, because of an environmental change, one of the variants died out. Since all physical traits of an animal arise from their genes, then this means that the "light colored" phenotype has been lost forever, and the gene(s) that cause it have become vastly less frequent, if not gone forever. Of course it is only an incremental change, and of course the Peppered Moth is not a different species, but it's gene pool has been forever altered. This is where your argument falls apart, Intaminfan, because you acknowledge that animals respond to their environment, but yet you refuse to believe that this leads to a long-term change. The traits that are successful (i.e. dark coloration) are passed on, and the unsuccessful traits die out. This causes genetic change, which over time, makes the animal different.

Small genetic changes like this occurring over time cause an animal to evolve. Because the process takes so long, of course we cannot point to an example of a species that has evolved just in our lifetimes. We can only point out the mechanisms that evolution predicts, many of which I have tested and proven for myself. How is evolution not logical? Because it occurs on a time scale we can't relate to? Just take these two simple points that I think you all cannot dispute as facts:

1) The world is in a constant state of change (i.e. weather, ocean currents, seasons, ice ages, etc.)
2) Each animal has a finite amount of genetic material.

It is simply not logical to believe that every living creature already possesses the genetic variation to deal with every possible situation. The ideal model would be as small and compact as possible, with the ability to change and react to its environment. This is what was created. It is so much more efficient and brilliant than what you guys invision. To me it seems like something that a divine being would have set up...

And nightride, do you really think that just because you don't agree with a viewpoint that it has been twisted around? Because you see your own beliefs as the undisputed truth, you will make any kind of allegations against anything contradicting them. This is the kind of paranoia that starts wars. Let me say this again. We are not out to get religion. Your Creation Scientists were creationists before they became scientists. They devoted their lives and careers to proving that the Bible is right and science is wrong. This is simply a biased approach, and there really can't be a dispute about that. The way a real scientist approaches an experiment is by looking at what the data tells him and drawing conclusions from that. In other words, real science does an experiment first, then draws conclusions from it. Creationist science already has conclusions and then sets up experiments to try to prove them. In your court metaphor, any juror with ties to a Creationist organisation would be thrown out due to bias. You say they are not biased? Give me one published research paper that clearly states support for Creationism and refutes evolution written by a non-Christian.
Even if you don't believe that we are not out to get Christianity, you have to realize that a lot of the research that lends evidence against Creationism has been done by scientists who don't even know what Christians believe. How could they be seeking to disprove something that they don't even know about?
And please stop saying that scientists have proven the Creation story. Unless someone got in a time machine and went back to see it for themselves, it is not proven. At least we have the honesty to call evolution a theory.

Pay attention to what he and all the over 1,000 Creationist scientists say and it is very logical.

Wow. Over 1000 Creationist scientists. Out of millions. Guess I better jump on the bandwagon then...

How can you guys say science is on your side? Let's go through them, shall we? Hmm, biology is based on evolution, so that's out...Geology, paleontology, physics and astronomy are all based on a unvierse billions of years old, so those are out...Meteorology, climatology, limnology and oceanography are based on a water cycle that circulates far less total water than Noah's flood needed, so those are out...Chemistry seems pretty neutral...Microbiology deals with bacteria, which aren't in the Bible and therefore must be another lie drummed up by the anti-Bible media... Need I go on?