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Wow a debate was developed. Anyway I think that the use of tools is good for NL, but the only thing is that they are not available to everyone, which makes it a bit unfair. I would take hours learning how to use the NL tools.... if they ever became available to me. And Real, one who spends 100 hours making a track using tools will obviously have a FAR better track then the person who spent 100 hours on a hand-made track, that is unless the hand-made track designer is uber good, and the person with the tools is using it for the first time, which is an unlikely case. If tools were implemented and built into NL, there would of never been this discussion, or at least as much of it as there is.
I am not sure why TJ and Edge said that they agree on the fact that people have become way to picky on rating a coaster, when they are picky themselves. Just to put up a flame shield, I am picky aswell (or at least by today's standards), but who wants to ride a coaster that is unrideable and unrealistic? Might as well not make a coaster.
Either way I think debates are good to have, to get everyone's feelings out and keep the site active, everyone is different and has different opinions, so chances are this will never be solved.
Board index ‹ Roller Coaster Games ‹ No Limits Coaster ‹ Debate - Using Tools vs No Tools
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. What I was talking about is not having a rating system...period. I know my opinion on this is different than just about everybody else here, and realise that it will never happen. I just personally don't like giving (or receiving) a number rating that represents feelings about a track because people interpret too many different things about numbers, especially in comparison to whatever comments are left with it. With comments only, there isn't as many interpretation problems...what you say is what you say. It's all just my opinion though, and like I said, I know it will never happen. I just didn't want you to think that I was complaining about a feature that you don't yet have. [:)]
As for the NL tool debate, I think i'm done debating about it. I'll continue watching you guys fight over it though, just because it is so damn entertaining. I'll just leave it at this: If you like my uploads and give me a good rating even though I used tools, COOL. If you like my uploads, but dock me for using tools, COOL. If you really don't much care for my uploads, and decide you would like to tell me about it, well that's COOL, too. I really don't care either way what numbers i'm given, just so long as you give me some constructive comments along with it. [:D]
nah, I didn't misunderstand, it's also been one of my wishes as well. Was just like trying to state why we don't have the comments only thing, but comments only and no ratings we had at the very start of wws.com and then everyone asked for numbers and stuff. Having both would be good though. [:)]
I don't know how much programming, I am contacting redBrad0, our coding specialist. I'll never contact another competing site for advise or help. That's what competition is all about eh?
Debate - Using Tools vs No Tools
Really you guys ... YAWN!
Geesh grow up and let it go, the horse is now ash!! [B)]
And Brtn, deep breath ... the first lesson about being a good staff member, anywhere, is to NOT single people out in a forum, and then try to inflict some "flame retardant statement" by agreeing with your own flame. It only seeks to weaken your own credibility man, really. If you have something to say, then say it. Honesty and straight-forwardness go much farther than the old "poke and jab" method of posting.
Second, I am picky and have a right to be. Why? Because I have rated more coasters than "most" (key word is most, not all) of you here have thought about.
![[lol]](https://www.coastercrazy.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_e_ugeek.gif "test")
I rate almost EVERYTHING I see (although lately life has overcome my time). I can usually tell before even clicking on the sim when a track is going to be a piece of junk, just by looking at the vertex placement in the editor. I may not be a great designer, but I most certainly know what works, and I certainly have figured out a way to help people.
My rates/comments are freaking novels, unlike some comments I see around here and other sites from VERY experienced designers which have NO VALUE added except to insult. Perhaps in also being picky, members could offer to help, rather than snubbing their noses at new members which seems to be common place in our community, Brtn.
OK, rant over. I'm not hating anymore. [:D]
Geesh grow up and let it go, the horse is now ash!! [B)]
And Brtn, deep breath ... the first lesson about being a good staff member, anywhere, is to NOT single people out in a forum, and then try to inflict some "flame retardant statement" by agreeing with your own flame. It only seeks to weaken your own credibility man, really. If you have something to say, then say it. Honesty and straight-forwardness go much farther than the old "poke and jab" method of posting.
Second, I am picky and have a right to be. Why? Because I have rated more coasters than "most" (key word is most, not all) of you here have thought about.
I rate almost EVERYTHING I see (although lately life has overcome my time). I can usually tell before even clicking on the sim when a track is going to be a piece of junk, just by looking at the vertex placement in the editor. I may not be a great designer, but I most certainly know what works, and I certainly have figured out a way to help people.
My rates/comments are freaking novels, unlike some comments I see around here and other sites from VERY experienced designers which have NO VALUE added except to insult. Perhaps in also being picky, members could offer to help, rather than snubbing their noses at new members which seems to be common place in our community, Brtn.
OK, rant over. I'm not hating anymore. [:D]
People have become way to picky, which is basically what this whole topic is about. People are picky about how you built the ride, having bumps in the ride, ect.
I remember my old rides, they were loaded with problems, and yet I still seemed to get good scores on it. Its a lot more fun when you seem to get decent rates, and you seem to be making better tracks, ect.
I remember my old rides, they were loaded with problems, and yet I still seemed to get good scores on it. Its a lot more fun when you seem to get decent rates, and you seem to be making better tracks, ect.
Strange though...
I would completely agree, things have gotten too anal. There is a ton of scrutiny on rides and some people will always do that, some wont.
But the real kicker to me is the tools are designed to do what HUMAN hands cannot. No one is capable of building a completely realistic ride because without using math there is way too much error. Got a few very small bumps that you cannot (literally) get by hand? Use the smoother, shuts a few people up.
Thats another reason I use them. I already have great track building ability so it irons out the little things that are impossible to do. Such as moving the verticies at incriments smaller than NL allows, hence why its impossible.
This whole debate though is hipocritical in some ways. I find it hypocritical to be so against the tools, and then in the same sentence be against all this uber critisim. The tools polish up alot of the fine details youd never get out and hence, do away with the ultra critism. Some might argue that the tools brought on this wave of critical rating, but it was happening LONG before even the first smoother. A few people raised the bar with a few coasters and once that bar was raised, everyone else was held to that standard. You cant fight that and you cant stop it.
Personally, I wish it was more taken like a SIMULATION rather than a GAME. Games promote everything we are seeing and complaining about. Simulations simulate something, they dont have objecives and goals. In the very least, its usually "Do this one (or couple) things as good as you can do them". Flying simulators, racing simulators, they all focus on a few key elements.
So does NoLimits. You have a realistic platform that recreates rollercoasters, the general idea is to create the most realistic ride possible, whatever the means.
In the end, we, the communities, have promoted this growth of critisism and cynical rates. I never took it as a game because there is no end. Not with tools, not with anything. The creative medium spans almost for infinity with the options you have and thus theres always barriers to be broken and smoother tracks to build.
As for me, I use tools to appease myself. I long ago let go of trying to appease everyone else. I have VERY high standards for myself, which anyone who has talked to me and been with me during a project has well found out. If it were NOT for the tools, I would have dropped the simulation long ago because I was never ever satisfied with anything I made. It was chaulk full of serious flaws and while everyone else may have liked it, I probably dispised it. The tools have enabled me to be content with my work because it allows me to do things NOT humanly possible which was to iron and help eliminate things that really, really bothered me.
But, it seems like the angst against tools may be what drives me away in the end.
I would completely agree, things have gotten too anal. There is a ton of scrutiny on rides and some people will always do that, some wont.
But the real kicker to me is the tools are designed to do what HUMAN hands cannot. No one is capable of building a completely realistic ride because without using math there is way too much error. Got a few very small bumps that you cannot (literally) get by hand? Use the smoother, shuts a few people up.
Thats another reason I use them. I already have great track building ability so it irons out the little things that are impossible to do. Such as moving the verticies at incriments smaller than NL allows, hence why its impossible.
This whole debate though is hipocritical in some ways. I find it hypocritical to be so against the tools, and then in the same sentence be against all this uber critisim. The tools polish up alot of the fine details youd never get out and hence, do away with the ultra critism. Some might argue that the tools brought on this wave of critical rating, but it was happening LONG before even the first smoother. A few people raised the bar with a few coasters and once that bar was raised, everyone else was held to that standard. You cant fight that and you cant stop it.
Personally, I wish it was more taken like a SIMULATION rather than a GAME. Games promote everything we are seeing and complaining about. Simulations simulate something, they dont have objecives and goals. In the very least, its usually "Do this one (or couple) things as good as you can do them". Flying simulators, racing simulators, they all focus on a few key elements.
So does NoLimits. You have a realistic platform that recreates rollercoasters, the general idea is to create the most realistic ride possible, whatever the means.
In the end, we, the communities, have promoted this growth of critisism and cynical rates. I never took it as a game because there is no end. Not with tools, not with anything. The creative medium spans almost for infinity with the options you have and thus theres always barriers to be broken and smoother tracks to build.
As for me, I use tools to appease myself. I long ago let go of trying to appease everyone else. I have VERY high standards for myself, which anyone who has talked to me and been with me during a project has well found out. If it were NOT for the tools, I would have dropped the simulation long ago because I was never ever satisfied with anything I made. It was chaulk full of serious flaws and while everyone else may have liked it, I probably dispised it. The tools have enabled me to be content with my work because it allows me to do things NOT humanly possible which was to iron and help eliminate things that really, really bothered me.
But, it seems like the angst against tools may be what drives me away in the end.
Originally posted by WeeWeeSlap
we want to add comments to the ratings, there's no denying that from the staff's part, but the usual, we lack such funds to invest in it. Right now we're barely making it through. the ads are generating like 10 cents a day on average and stuff so what the site gets is as much as I can put into it. I am full time emplyee, full time school student so most my funds go into that. As soon as we get some extra cash in, or at leats enough we'll add comments only into the ratings as well which should help some of this out [:)] So everyone, start sending your donations in!
we want to add comments to the ratings, there's no denying that from the staff's part, but the usual, we lack such funds to invest in it. Right now we're barely making it through. the ads are generating like 10 cents a day on average and stuff so what the site gets is as much as I can put into it. I am full time emplyee, full time school student so most my funds go into that. As soon as we get some extra cash in, or at leats enough we'll add comments only into the ratings as well which should help some of this out [:)] So everyone, start sending your donations in!
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. What I was talking about is not having a rating system...period. I know my opinion on this is different than just about everybody else here, and realise that it will never happen. I just personally don't like giving (or receiving) a number rating that represents feelings about a track because people interpret too many different things about numbers, especially in comparison to whatever comments are left with it. With comments only, there isn't as many interpretation problems...what you say is what you say. It's all just my opinion though, and like I said, I know it will never happen. I just didn't want you to think that I was complaining about a feature that you don't yet have. [:)]
As for the NL tool debate, I think i'm done debating about it. I'll continue watching you guys fight over it though, just because it is so damn entertaining. I'll just leave it at this: If you like my uploads and give me a good rating even though I used tools, COOL. If you like my uploads, but dock me for using tools, COOL. If you really don't much care for my uploads, and decide you would like to tell me about it, well that's COOL, too. I really don't care either way what numbers i'm given, just so long as you give me some constructive comments along with it. [:D]
Real -- very interesting perspective. Perhaps you would be just the one to begin to bring about some sort of reform? Surely if, collectively, enough members were to initiate something with the audience that knows those folks' are knowledgeable, perhaps change could come in time if enough bought into wanting change.
I am reminded of a great phrase I have heard more than once ... "Lots of people are always willing to loan you their armor and tell you how to fight, but there are a lot LESS who are willing to put their armor on and go engage the enemy."
(You can guess where I have heard (and used) this from.)
I am reminded of a great phrase I have heard more than once ... "Lots of people are always willing to loan you their armor and tell you how to fight, but there are a lot LESS who are willing to put their armor on and go engage the enemy."
(You can guess where I have heard (and used) this from.)
Looking at some of the NL stuff, it seems like some things have gotten out of hand. However, if one can justify their rating, then it should be allowed if that person hasn't docked -2 for a tiny bump in technical or something.
When you're comparing a coaster with a benchmark (what in your mind is perfection), then it's easy to get caught up with tiny bumps and absence of a 3rd train. However, I do believe there have been a couple ratings like "wtf did you choose those colors for?" when everyone has their own opinion. The Adrenaline and Originality can be debated, but if there is a smooth/well supported coaster and someone gives a 5 in technical without explaining why, then there's something to go ask that person about.
Honestly the rates that bug be the most are the ones that say "OMFG I LOVE YOUR COASTER STRAIGHT TENS!" when it doesn't deserve it. Oh yea, and the ones I never get (*hint hint*)
My final opinion on this is that everyone should use their common sense and keep things non-chaotic (not flaming/heated discussions and debates). That's the way it was meant to be.
When you're comparing a coaster with a benchmark (what in your mind is perfection), then it's easy to get caught up with tiny bumps and absence of a 3rd train. However, I do believe there have been a couple ratings like "wtf did you choose those colors for?" when everyone has their own opinion. The Adrenaline and Originality can be debated, but if there is a smooth/well supported coaster and someone gives a 5 in technical without explaining why, then there's something to go ask that person about.
Honestly the rates that bug be the most are the ones that say "OMFG I LOVE YOUR COASTER STRAIGHT TENS!" when it doesn't deserve it. Oh yea, and the ones I never get (*hint hint*)
My final opinion on this is that everyone should use their common sense and keep things non-chaotic (not flaming/heated discussions and debates). That's the way it was meant to be.
Well, I think about everything that could be said has been said. Some of you make great points and others just piss in the wind. I'll not point out names as that is not who I am.
I used to build the fool out of coasters a couple years back. That is where I meet Weeweeslap, Real, Buster,etc.... There was a time where I wanted to "showcase" peoples ideas/inventions and they would send them to me and I would piece them together giving full credit to those who were inspired to create. I have several "medals" for my designs and at one time I was even a staff member at cs.com
Why am I saying this you ask? Simple, it is because of anal rententative members from every site where I was a member. And, I started to become one of those types, which was not me in any way. No Limits, Scream Machines, Ultimate Coaster series are very, very fun programs to play with and you people suck the fun out like a mosquito sucks blood.
I stopped publishing rides because of the idiotic rates, the idiotic rules, and idiotic ideas of the person rating. Things like, not using custom supports or not using any landscaping, and the one that kicks me in the face is High G's on certain rides. Some coasters, especially the older ones, have some extreme Gs to them. That is one way they kept you in the car and not flying out.
I still build coasters and may one day upload again for those who truly enjoy coaster riding, but for now I will still build for myself.
I want to upload my Carowinds collection but they will get terrible rates as I doubt many of you, if any, have been to Carowinds.
You ask about tools, should they or should they not be used? All I can say is opinions are like butt-holes, we all got one. Sometimes I use them and sometimes I do not. I think the key here is not to rely on them but to go back and review your ride after using them.
Here are a few questions I want to ask you. Answer them honestly and see where your mind is. Is it straight or bent?
1. Is the car you drive "hand" made or were there tools involved?
2. How many actual coasters have you been on that are silky smooth compared to others that toss you around?
3. How many times have you ridden a coaster and came off with a headache?
4. How many times have you gotten a bruise from a coaster?
5. When you open the refrigerator is there a stamp on the inside that says Every part built by hand from Jasper?
6. What exactly is the difference between Fantasy and Reality?
7. How many coasters have you ridden that actually have more than 2 air-time hills?
8. Have you ever actually looked at the tracks on real coasters to see how oddly shaped allot of them are?
9. Do you only download coasters from those you know or do you honestly download those that catch your eye?
I could go on and on but to me this horse is not only dead, buried and turned to ashes but it has risen from the grave to remind me why building and sharing are just not any fun.
And one wonders why I took a 2 year absence? And to think I thought the whole rating system was to help those improve. Dumb me!
I used to build the fool out of coasters a couple years back. That is where I meet Weeweeslap, Real, Buster,etc.... There was a time where I wanted to "showcase" peoples ideas/inventions and they would send them to me and I would piece them together giving full credit to those who were inspired to create. I have several "medals" for my designs and at one time I was even a staff member at cs.com
Why am I saying this you ask? Simple, it is because of anal rententative members from every site where I was a member. And, I started to become one of those types, which was not me in any way. No Limits, Scream Machines, Ultimate Coaster series are very, very fun programs to play with and you people suck the fun out like a mosquito sucks blood.
I stopped publishing rides because of the idiotic rates, the idiotic rules, and idiotic ideas of the person rating. Things like, not using custom supports or not using any landscaping, and the one that kicks me in the face is High G's on certain rides. Some coasters, especially the older ones, have some extreme Gs to them. That is one way they kept you in the car and not flying out.
I still build coasters and may one day upload again for those who truly enjoy coaster riding, but for now I will still build for myself.
I want to upload my Carowinds collection but they will get terrible rates as I doubt many of you, if any, have been to Carowinds.
You ask about tools, should they or should they not be used? All I can say is opinions are like butt-holes, we all got one. Sometimes I use them and sometimes I do not. I think the key here is not to rely on them but to go back and review your ride after using them.
Here are a few questions I want to ask you. Answer them honestly and see where your mind is. Is it straight or bent?
1. Is the car you drive "hand" made or were there tools involved?
2. How many actual coasters have you been on that are silky smooth compared to others that toss you around?
3. How many times have you ridden a coaster and came off with a headache?
4. How many times have you gotten a bruise from a coaster?
5. When you open the refrigerator is there a stamp on the inside that says Every part built by hand from Jasper?
6. What exactly is the difference between Fantasy and Reality?
7. How many coasters have you ridden that actually have more than 2 air-time hills?
8. Have you ever actually looked at the tracks on real coasters to see how oddly shaped allot of them are?
9. Do you only download coasters from those you know or do you honestly download those that catch your eye?
I could go on and on but to me this horse is not only dead, buried and turned to ashes but it has risen from the grave to remind me why building and sharing are just not any fun.
And one wonders why I took a 2 year absence? And to think I thought the whole rating system was to help those improve. Dumb me!
1. Is the car you drive "hand" made or were there tools involved?
Not many, if any.
2. How many actual coasters have you been on that are silky smooth compared to others that toss you around?
Too many to count
3. How many times have you ridden a coaster and came off with a headache?
Everytime I ride Mantis
4. How many times have you gotten a bruise from a coaster?
Never
5. When you open the refrigerator is there a stamp on the inside that says Every part built by hand from Jasper?
Its not a Jasper, but still, not.
6. What exactly is the difference between Fantasy and Reality?
Fantasy isnt Reality, duh silly
7. How many coasters have you ridden that actually have more than 2 air-time hills?
Man, quite a few actually.
8. Have you ever actually looked at the tracks on real coasters to see how oddly shaped allot of them are?
I wish I could say no to this...
9. Do you only download coasters from those you know or do you honestly download those that catch your eye?
Those that catch my eye, reguardless who built it. Never know when someone may break through
Oh, sorry if you didnt mean those intentionally
I was serious though, no jokes in there.
Not many, if any.
2. How many actual coasters have you been on that are silky smooth compared to others that toss you around?
Too many to count
3. How many times have you ridden a coaster and came off with a headache?
Everytime I ride Mantis
4. How many times have you gotten a bruise from a coaster?
Never
5. When you open the refrigerator is there a stamp on the inside that says Every part built by hand from Jasper?
Its not a Jasper, but still, not.
6. What exactly is the difference between Fantasy and Reality?
Fantasy isnt Reality, duh silly
7. How many coasters have you ridden that actually have more than 2 air-time hills?
Man, quite a few actually.
8. Have you ever actually looked at the tracks on real coasters to see how oddly shaped allot of them are?
I wish I could say no to this...
9. Do you only download coasters from those you know or do you honestly download those that catch your eye?
Those that catch my eye, reguardless who built it. Never know when someone may break through
Oh, sorry if you didnt mean those intentionally
I was serious though, no jokes in there.a lot has to do with the weekly competition. Pride is one of humanities major flaws (that, and greed, and laziness, and the opposite sex) I created this debate so everyone can come to an agreement on whether to rate down on tools or not. Apparantly, this debate has not solved anything, so I guess we still have a lot to go before we have a good coaster riding enviornment.
Easy solution is to seperate both sides but thats pointless and doesnt solve anything
[:p] Real
Originally posted by Kev
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. What I was talking about is not having a rating system...period. I know my opinion on this is different than just about everybody else here, and realise that it will never happen. I just personally don't like giving (or receiving) a number rating that represents feelings about a track because people interpret too many different things about numbers, especially in comparison to whatever comments are left with it. With comments only, there isn't as many interpretation problems...what you say is what you say. It's all just my opinion though, and like I said, I know it will never happen. I just didn't want you to think that I was complaining about a feature that you don't yet have. [:)]
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. What I was talking about is not having a rating system...period. I know my opinion on this is different than just about everybody else here, and realise that it will never happen. I just personally don't like giving (or receiving) a number rating that represents feelings about a track because people interpret too many different things about numbers, especially in comparison to whatever comments are left with it. With comments only, there isn't as many interpretation problems...what you say is what you say. It's all just my opinion though, and like I said, I know it will never happen. I just didn't want you to think that I was complaining about a feature that you don't yet have. [:)]
nah, I didn't misunderstand, it's also been one of my wishes as well. Was just like trying to state why we don't have the comments only thing, but comments only and no ratings we had at the very start of wws.com and then everyone asked for numbers and stuff. Having both would be good though. [:)]
Slap ... how much programming would be involved to have both functions? I know of two sites that have this, and those Admins might be able to assist (of course that means contacting the "enemy competition" - LOL) ... I am not thinking it is too hard to do, IMO, and might solve that issue for everyone? Am I missing something?
Either way, perhaps it IS time to come to an understanding of rating to help, not rating to slam. I only said this same thing about a year and a half ago, but hey who am I, right? So, I merely conformed to the environment that "we" have collectively created ... but I agree that change would be good in this area -- and is LONG overdue.
Either way, perhaps it IS time to come to an understanding of rating to help, not rating to slam. I only said this same thing about a year and a half ago, but hey who am I, right? So, I merely conformed to the environment that "we" have collectively created ... but I agree that change would be good in this area -- and is LONG overdue.
If possible I think that the best option for ratings would be to have 2 separate exchanges. Would could be an "academic" exchannge, where people only give comments but no numerical ratings. The other one could be a competitive exchange with numerical ratings and awards, etc. This way those who dont like receiving numerical ratings and those who do could both get what they want, and the rating complaints would likely go down as well.
Slap ... how much programming would be involved to have both functions? I know of two sites that have this, and those Admins might be able to assist (of course that means contacting the "enemy competition" - LOL)
I don't know how much programming, I am contacting redBrad0, our coding specialist. I'll never contact another competing site for advise or help. That's what competition is all about eh?
Yeah ... I merely mentioned a couple of reliable folks ... lol ... but it should be pretty quick. Something about the scripting allowing a "zero" rate to be entered ...
null rate, 0 rate would lower the score and also a null to the total rating count etc
Hmmmm ... something about:
If rate = '0' or ' '; then it does not get factored in ... now that is gonna bother me until I figure it out! Ha!!!
If rate = '0' or ' '; then it does not get factored in ... now that is gonna bother me until I figure it out! Ha!!!
rate 1 = 8 rating count +1
rate 2 = 0 rating count +1
total = total rating / total rating count
total = 8 / 2 = 4
-------------
rate 1 = 8 rating count +1
rate 2 = null rating count +null
total = total rating / total rating count
total = 8 / 1 = 8
see why 0 = no good?
rate 2 = 0 rating count +1
total = total rating / total rating count
total = 8 / 2 = 4
-------------
rate 1 = 8 rating count +1
rate 2 = null rating count +null
total = total rating / total rating count
total = 8 / 1 = 8
see why 0 = no good?
Yeah, that is what we have both agreed to (twice now but unspoken ... I am with you man -- lol) ... but obviously it is allowable if we have all seen it done. There is just a scripting process that needs to not factor the '0' in the formula. Like, if it equals zero, it is not counted in any portion of the addition or subsequent division.
better to use nulls, else the process would require if and then statements, more scripting than necessary, best way is to do it most efficiently and less resouce use. [:)]
"less resouce use" ... but of course!
Bunch of nerds!
Okay, so I'm replying again to this thread...even though I said I wouldn't. It's not about the tools though, so I only half lied. [:P]
Just want to point out that it would be very possible to completely remove rating abilities, yet still have weekly competitions. I've seen this very thing done at other non-coaster related websites. What you could do is place a weekly poll in each of the coaster game forums that has all of the previous week's coasters listed. People could vote in this poll for a week to determine the medal winners. I don't think i've ever seen it done this way at any of the other coaster game sites, so it would be something 'fresh and new' for the community.
Just want to point out that it would be very possible to completely remove rating abilities, yet still have weekly competitions. I've seen this very thing done at other non-coaster related websites. What you could do is place a weekly poll in each of the coaster game forums that has all of the previous week's coasters listed. People could vote in this poll for a week to determine the medal winners. I don't think i've ever seen it done this way at any of the other coaster game sites, so it would be something 'fresh and new' for the community.
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by Princess_G » February 1st, 2006, 3:14 am - 16 Replies
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