Debate - Using Tools vs No Tools

^That brings up the question of finding out who actually downloaded what coasters though.
I could see that format running into problems with people voting for their 'favorite' builder.

[Kev]

Originally posted by Fornication Nation

^That brings up the question of finding out who actually downloaded what coasters though.
I could see that format running into problems with people voting for their 'favorite' builder.

I agree, that could be a problem. Then again, i'm pretty sure it's already a problem with the current system too.

If you're doing your averaging in your script, you're killing yourself effciency wise anyway. Just do something like select sum(ratings) as score from ratings where ride = 3423;

Oh look... a poor deceased horsie... time to get my couple of thwacks with a baseball bat in for the day.

Consider the following interesting hypothetical scenario:

Suppose I'm building a track in No Limits, and I cannot seem to remove an offending "feature" -- a bump, a pump, whatever. Suppose I then sit down and develop my own tool to correct what I could not correct using No Limits. The bump/pump/etc. is now removed, and I then post both versions of the track.

How would folks rate each track as compared to the other? In one I have used no only No Limits and the track contains "undesirables". In the other I have used self-developed tools and the "undesirables" have been significantly reduced or eliminated.

In other words, is it the fact that tools are used which causes some to rate lower, or is it the fact that the tools used were not created by the user?

BJJB

[Oscar]

ok that thing is added in, just don't chose any numbers and it'll only add a comment and not factor it into the overall rating

[Brtnboarder495]

Hmm well, I would probably give the same rating. If there is an awful bump, I would take off, if you heavily used tools, I would probably take off. I would give a high(er) rating if you actually hand-fixed it.

[coolbeans326]

how much money from donations did you get last month?

At this point I have to ask, "what constitutes hand-fixing", or "hand-building" a coaster in No Limits?

Is it going into No Limits and dragging control points around, with its limitations in snap precision?
Is it going into No Limits and hand-entering X, Y, Z coordinate values into the Vertex Panel for the control points, with its limitations in signficant digits?
Is it opening up the trackfile in a hex editor and hand-entering control point coordinates there?

Suppose I sit down with pencil and paper and compute the required coordinates for all of my control points and then hand-enter them into No Limits?
What if I use a calculator in addition to the pencil and paper?
What if I use a computer program I wrote instead of a calculator to calculate the required coordinates, but I still hand-enter them into No Limits?

This is why I think the concept of "you used tools, I'm taking points off" makes little or no sense. How can you, the rider, tell whether tools were used or not? How can you differentiate between

1. someone sitting down with pencil and paper, hand-calculating the necessary control points for the entire track, and then hand-entering those control points into a trackfile using a hex editor (so you don't lose a factor of fifty in precision by using NL's Vertex Panel).

and

2. someone running a track smoothing algorithm, computed track elements, auto heartlining, and other various tools.

simply by riding the coaster after it has been uploaded? Is it a matter of "this track is too good, the creator must have used tools, I'm taking points off"?

BJJB

Originally posted by WeeWeeSlap

ok that thing is added in, just don't chose any numbers and it'll only add a comment and not factor it into the overall rating

Just a question, are you still only able to "rate" once?

OK folks -- I just spent the better part of 3.5 hours getting tutored on the usage of tools ... and I am here to say, THEY ARE THE BOMB! That is, if you are willing and have the brain capacity to learn a completely NEW way of designing that not not only enhances your designs ... BUT ... perfects what you NEVER could do by hand. So there, I have said it, I am pro-tools ... and some coasters are forth-coming from me using tools, period.

Haha, who taught ya there TCon?

[Oscar]

Originally posted by coasteragent99


Just a question, are you still only able to "rate" once?

good question, let's find out!

Originally posted by Real

Haha, who taught ya there TCon?

Tyler ... who's schooling was "tweaked" by Buster. And yeah Real, NEVER in my life have my turns or hills been smoother than right now!

Share some of the info

I have plans on writing a tutorial in the next week or two.

That would be great[:)]

Originally posted by Fornication Nation

Share some of the info

I cannot share yet as I am still digesting ... but suffice to say that your mind will be spanked, thoroughly.

[coolbeans326]

^ what tool are you using?

All of them, pretty much

That is putting it mildly Tyler ... Elementary to start with, and several other developments from the "wizards" of this game (like Redunzelizer's). Folks, I have tons to learn and it feels like I just downloaded NL for the first time today ... cause I am learning a whole new way to design ... but let me tell you what, the outcomes FAR outweigh the stress involved of learning a new way to design. Here are some examples ... (notice the verticee placement ... they are perfectly in line and spaced!!)


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Originally posted by WeeWeeSlap

Originally posted by coasteragent99


Just a question, are you still only able to "rate" once?

good question, let's find out!

Put up a track and let me test it.

Oh yeah, that leads to another question. Are you able to comment on your own track? It'd be cool if we could switch to something similar to what coastercandy and c2k uses, the difference is being able to edit comments. (this works by being able to post anything, rate once, then comment as much as afterward needed, also, counter-comment on your own track.)

Anyways, for tools, unless it's the elementary used to hold up someone's butt for their design, letting them get away with making a high quality track in 2 hours, nothing should be taken down for tools. I use 3ds depumpers and it'd be rediculous to have a rating that says, "you used a 3ds for depumping, -1 for that". See what I mean?

Originally posted by coasteragent99

Anyways, for tools, unless it's the elementary used to hold up someone's butt for their design, letting them get away with making a high quality track in 2 hours, nothing should be taken down for tools.

The fact that you say that shows how clueless you are about these tools. I've spent more than two hours on a LIFT in elementry.

Ok, then maybe a few days? That's still only a small amount of time to make a good track (that would normally take several months, track only) Sheesh, calm down.

As for the lift, (unless it's a curved one) you should be able to make a descent one in 2 mins. (you may need to use a shaping tool for the entrance and exit)

What the hell is wrong with making a ride in a few days? This isn't some kind of masochism contest. Frnakly, I've got better things to do with my time then fiddle with vertices.

Gotta agree with Tylers last statement there.

I spend usually something like 20 minutes on a lift since Ive got a system down.

Basically I use the Helix maker to make my vertical curves. If I need a 30 degree lift, I punch that in. Then i rotate in the Purg, then slap into NL. Throw in some straights, etc etc. It takes some time but at least I know my lifts are perfect