Tools or no tools?

Too much Ty ...

Hmm, tools are not available to everyone? new to me.

Buster.

[gouldy]

Yeah, i was just thinking that, tools are available to anyone that wants them. I have got NL tools on my PC, I just don't use them, its not because they're not available to me.

Originally posted by Buster

Hmm, tools are not available to everyone? new to me.
Buster.

Sho nuff ... problem is the ones bickering are usually the ones totally against actually LEARNING something new, eh?

[gouldy]

learning something new, yeah, I guess I'll have to say it again, I have used tools before, the auto heartliner infact, so its not that I can't be bothered to learn how to use it or anything because I have used it. The thing is, when I had used it, I never uploaded the track that I used it on because I didn't feel as if I could, I felt almost like I hadn't even built the track. So don't say that we are against tools because we can't use them or can't be bothered to learn how to use them because I can and have.

I would take my vote back after thinking about this one. I would say sort of because you want to have it hand smooted as much as possible. Using the tools gives you a false sense that your track will be perfect.

[Kev]

Originally posted by dropzone265

Using the tools gives you a false sense that your track will be perfect.

This is exactly what everybody needs to understand. There is no tool available that will automatically make a perfect track. Take a look at tracks made by some of the well known tool users, and you will still find flaws if you really look hard enough. For me, I just look at the tools as being an alternate way of doing things in NL. I don't really see one way being any better than the other, because I've seen some incredible hand built tracks. If a person prefers to continue building completely by hand, then power to them.

I guess I could say more, but I said all I really needed to say during the last discussion we all had about this.

Saying it again:

Crappy track into a tool like the smoother -- smooth crap back out.
Tools are not a fix-all ... period.

I have a Mac, so I have no idea.[dunno]

[gouldy]

I never said that tools were a fix-all, but what they do is make a track more technically accurate with little effort in comparison to the effort it would have taken to do the same thing by hand, which is why I have to award more marks to someone who has made an excellent track by hand and slightly less marks to someone who has made an excellent track with some help from tools. Simply because one has put more effort in than the other, at school on a report card you have marks for effort and how good you are at subjects and what not, well I'm only doing the same thing here, I am rewarding effort, the more effort is put in the higher the marks, I have absolutely no idea how you can possibly think that that it is wrong.

If someone draws a perfectly straight line with a ruler and another person draws a perfectly straight line completely free hand, which one has put more effort in? Which one is better at drawing? Thats probably not a brilliant analogy but you can see what I'm trying to get at. And don't someone say "the one who hasn't used the ruler is obviously stupid for not utilizing the ruler, it being quicker and easier bla bla" because thats not what I mean at all. I just think that people who pour more effort into something deserve more of a reward, is that really that wrong?

Tools allow for things that aren't even possible to do without them. For example, I don't think anyone could construct a track with 5 ft long segments to allow for extremely close to 0 laterals. And with the elementary, you can make turns with a nearly perfect constant radius, where it's basically impossible to do by hand.

Even if you do use tools it still take a lot of time building. Atleast for me it still take a lot of time to get it good. So tools doesn't automaicly mean perfect track in no-time. And your track still has to be good in the ardenaline and originality departement. So IMO tools isn't an easy way to make tracks, just different. Some people prefer using them, others don't. As long as the coaster is good I don't care how it was built.

Its not wrong to reward those who dont use tools but it is wrong to degrade someone for using them.

Civilization has been based on the progress of people developing and using tools to further enhance what we do. Same situation here. You CAN do everything by hand, but you will be very limited as to what you can construct and to what degree.

It is then wrong to penalize someone else for FURTHERING their creations.


Its sad that over all the conversations weve had, gouldy and everyone else still thinks that tools require no effort. Look at Tylers tracks. Techincally, they are great in more ways than none. But I think they have a "static" quality because of the heavy use of elementary, which is great for most applications but I still have only seen one track come from elementary which I feel "Feels handmade and planned out" completely, (Busters Gravitator) and its my #1 ride.


Everything I create, I still create by hand (with other tools applid) but maybe I should keep a log of how LONG I still spend on my rides. Maybe some of you would gain some respect for the tools and the amount of effort that still goes into creating a track that uses them.

Not to mention the more you use tools, the higher YOUR own level of acceptance goes. I think alone on Hydra in the last week Ive put in 3-4 hours per element, and thats been reworking. Thats not counting the hours Ive put in creating them from scratch. In the end I will have put in JUST as many hours as anyone else...but Ill get penalized. Thats what doesnt set right with me.

Not to mention there is no one who can, by hand, properly recreate a ride (especially B&M). They are built mathematically every 2-4ft. Even if you built every 12 ft (which Ive done by hand, it sucks) you STILL cant come close to the smoothness of rotation and control of G's that 2-4 creates. So especially for this recreation of one of the most twisted rides Ive seen, Ill still get docked.

Sad.

A ride now might take me 10 hours totally with tools, and then there is supporting, landscaping, smoothing, tweaking, etc. to contend with.

Anyway ... honestly ya'll, I am so sick of weeding through this crap about tools. Use them or not -- uninstall NoLimits for all I care --- but geesh, they are available to everyone if you want them. If you choose not to use them, fine, shut up about it.

Do you people know how many rides were made without tools by someone like Real? For example ... for those that know Nightride, do you remember his wicked woods?? Guess what? Not one tool ever touched his tracks, unless you count his mouse and imagination. Now, tools are out and available and guess what lame-brain's? They were designed by folks who have MASTERED NL (Buster, Hansixx, etc.)!

So, come on and shut up already ... and for the Mac folks - tools are available with Virtual PC which is pretty cheap, and with the exception of the licensed version of the "Construction Kit", ALL TOOLS ARE FREE! The investment far outweighs the complaints, so shut up.

[Brtnboarder495]

No mac user has to shut up and if Virtual PC is so cheap - why dont you buy it for me?

Thats an immature question. I want to learn how to use elementary, will you pay for a second college education so I can take up mathematics?

If your profile is right, next year at 15 you CAN find places to work at. My girlfriend worked when she was 15, made decent money. Found a place close by she could be driven or rollerblade/bike to.

Originally posted by gouldy

I never said that tools were a fix-all, but what they do is make a track more technically accurate with little effort in comparison to the effort it would have taken to do the same thing by hand, which is why I have to award more marks to someone who has made an excellent track by hand and slightly less marks to someone who has made an excellent track with some help from tools. Simply because one has put more effort in than the other, at school on a report card you have marks for effort and how good you are at subjects and what not, well I'm only doing the same thing here, I am rewarding effort, the more effort is put in the higher the marks, I have absolutely no idea how you can possibly think that that it is wrong.

Out of all the rubbish that was said in this thread, this one really sticks out. How arrogant can you get? You have NO idea how much effort goes into some rides built entirely by Tools. I don't even want to start about the countless hours of research and coding I did to make some of the tools, but even if hadn't coded them, I can tell for sure that it takes way more time and effort and patience to create a good ride with tools than without.

Here's a challenge: You go and learn the tools (should be a matter of a few minutes if you actually believe what you say). Now go and create a good flowing spaghetti bowl. You aren't allowed to touch a single Vertex other than the first and maybe the last connection from brake to station. You can only use tools. I will do the same without tools. I can promise that you will have a MUCH harder time than me. I even doubt that you would be able to finish this ride within this month.

You simply have NO clue what you are talking about. You never sat next to me or Real or Hansixx and actually watched what we do. How on earth do you get the idea that you could judge how much effort went into a ride.

This said... What is wrong with you that you don't just enjoy the rides and judge them for what they are? If a ride is technically perfect, you should rate accordingly.

Buster.

PS @ Brtnboarder495:
quote: " If tools where made available for everyone and were included in NL rather than third party software, I would stop complaining. In fact, I think that third party software should either be included in NL (officialy by the NL team) or eliminated from the world altogether. I would pay extra money if this was done."
and
"No mac user has to shut up and if Virtual PC is so cheap - why dont you buy it for me?"

Why don't you go and buy it? You said you would be willing to pay extra money.

You just make no sense boy.

[Brtnboarder495]

Originally posted by Real

Thats an immature question. I want to learn how to use elementary, will you pay for a second college education so I can take up mathematics?

If your profile is right, next year at 15 you CAN find places to work at. My girlfriend worked when she was 15, made decent money. Found a place close by she could be driven or rollerblade/bike to.

A-I will be 15 in June
B-I have a job and work, however I can only work on Saturdays because I have 3 hours of homework and I get home from school at 3. I also have soccer practice every day and games on Sunday's and 3 hours of homework as well. Currently I have about $550, but I am not going to pay for a shitty emulator that hardly works, especially when it costs around $220-250.

[Oscar]

A-I will be 15 in June

You're still a boy.

[Brtnboarder495]

PS @ Brtnboarder495:
quote: " If tools where made available for everyone and were included in NL rather than third party software, I would stop complaining. In fact, I think that third party software should either be included in NL (officialy by the NL team) or eliminated from the world altogether. I would pay extra money if this was done."
and
"No mac user has to shut up and if Virtual PC is so cheap - why dont you buy it for me?"

Why don't you go and buy it? You said you would be willing to pay extra money.

You just make no sense boy.

I was implying that I would pay an extra $20 or so if the tools were built-into NL. It can be done, and the tools can also be made for macs, it just isn't being done. I know you are not able to make the tools available Buster, or so I believe that you cannot as you do not have a mac or any experience working with them. But would'nt you agree that paying $220 for an emulator that runs horribly slow is not very logical?

I mean I could throw in $300 or $400 more and just buy a cheap PC that would run without lag and then I could kick some ass on AoM on ESO. However I need money for lunch money, a car, schooling.... it does'nt end.

Exactly, then you have priorities other than NL which shouldnt be complained about.

Have you ever used Virtual PC? You make it sound like you know exactly how its going to run. Ive talked to several people and they love it, say it works great.


Dont complain just to complain, thats ridiculous. Obviously NL is a complete backburned activity next to the things you have lined up in your life. But even if you work now, at 15 you can find places that will be legitimate work places since I dont know anyone who hires at 14 and makes you pay taxes and such like normal workers do. But you are earning money, thats great.

I just say dont complain because you think your ideal is the perfect one. Obviously if these tools were so easily implemented into NL it would have been done. But the tools are not perfect AND what you fail to realize is that Ole, the only one on the team who knows Mac coding, DIDNT create any of these tools.

So, someone has to translate all the code cross-platform and if Ole didnt code it originally and the original coders cant code Mac, theres a problem there isnt there.

I think we should all wear shiney pants.

Real,

Hy-Vee (grocery store), my first job makes you pay taxes (gov. & state) and social security. It sucked when i made 200 dollars, but 30 of it came out. but the it was suppose to be better once i got tax returns, but well, i got about 150 dollars for the entire year. so i lost around 400 dollars a year from taxes ...



...ass hole republicans

[Brtnboarder495]

Real, I said that it could be done, not that it will. There is someone out there that undertands mac and PC code enough to "translate" it. Riscit created the mac track-extractor and is soon going to begin working on the mac track-packager. It CAN be done, but no one is doing it. Trust me, if I knew the coding processes I would of already started.

^Then wait till someone does start. Complaining isnt going to get anyone to go any faster. For most people, its a demotivator. Makes their work feel rushed and unappriciated.


Yea, any established company will. Its only smart to pay your taxes. If no one paid taxes, our roads, highways, schools and everything else public would suck.


Complain to me when you are paying taxes to a city that you dont live in, like me I work in a city 30 minutes away so my own city doesnt even benefit. :

And btw, wait till you work in a union and they suck out union dues that you dont use. Thats always fun :\