Tools or no tools?

[coolbeans326]

It would be cool to have tools included, then everyone can SHUT THE HELL UP and use them!!!!!
Topics over! Use tools if you want to, who cares! It's yours and you can do w/e you feel like doing, now stop arguing people!

I guess if you consider it an argument...

[Brtnboarder495]

I think we can all agree on that...

i would more consider it a debate, but now it is getting out of control, which is turning into an argument but yes im sure we can agree on that...

[Brtnboarder495]

Ole? Did you get that?

Originally posted by Buster

Out of all the rubbish that was said in this thread, this one really sticks out. How arrogant can you get? You have NO idea how much effort goes into some rides built entirely by Tools. I don't even want to start about the countless hours of research and coding I did to make some of the tools, but even if hadn't coded them, I can tell for sure that it takes way more time and effort and patience to create a good ride with tools than without.

Here's a challenge: You go and learn the tools (should be a matter of a few minutes if you actually believe what you say). Now go and create a good flowing spaghetti bowl. You aren't allowed to touch a single Vertex other than the first and maybe the last connection from brake to station. You can only use tools. I will do the same without tools. I can promise that you will have a MUCH harder time than me. I even doubt that you would be able to finish this ride within this month.

You simply have NO clue what you are talking about. You never sat next to me or Real or Hansixx and actually watched what we do. How on earth do you get the idea that you could judge how much effort went into a ride.

This said... What is wrong with you that you don't just enjoy the rides and judge them for what they are? If a ride is technically perfect, you should rate accordingly.

Buster.

Bravo.....Bravo.

Originally posted by Buster

You simply have NO clue what you are talking about. You never sat next to me or Real or Hansixx and actually watched what we do. How on earth do you get the idea that you could judge how much effort went into a ride.

This said... What is wrong with you that you don't just enjoy the rides and judge them for what they are? If a ride is technically perfect, you should rate accordingly.

Buster.

PS @ Brtnboarder495:

quote: " If tools where made available for everyone and were included in NL rather than third party software, I would stop complaining. In fact, I think that third party software should either be included in NL (officialy by the NL team) or eliminated from the world altogether. I would pay extra money if this was done."
and "No mac user has to shut up and if Virtual PC is so cheap - why dont you buy it for me?"

Why don't you go and buy it? You said you would be willing to pay extra money.

You just make no sense boy.

Gouldy and Brtn:
That, my friends, is called being taken to school and getting your butt handed to you in the woodshed. Now, shut up already and let your actions speak instead of your mouths/fingers.

Now I know why it costs money.

[Brtnboarder495]

Originally posted by TConwell

Originally posted by Buster

You simply have NO clue what you are talking about. You never sat next to me or Real or Hansixx and actually watched what we do. How on earth do you get the idea that you could judge how much effort went into a ride.

This said... What is wrong with you that you don't just enjoy the rides and judge them for what they are? If a ride is technically perfect, you should rate accordingly.

Buster.

PS @ Brtnboarder495:

quote: " If tools where made available for everyone and were included in NL rather than third party software, I would stop complaining. In fact, I think that third party software should either be included in NL (officialy by the NL team) or eliminated from the world altogether. I would pay extra money if this was done."
and "No mac user has to shut up and if Virtual PC is so cheap - why dont you buy it for me?"

Why don't you go and buy it? You said you would be willing to pay extra money.

You just make no sense boy.

Gouldy and Brtn:
That, my friends, is called being taken to school and getting your butt handed to you in the woodshed. Now, shut up already and let your actions speak instead of your mouths/fingers.

Why? Because Buster said it? I respect Buster as I do any other member here, but with the same respect. I don't go an worship Buster and Real because Buster makes tools and is a great designer and Real is a great designer. I already posted a response to this that he misunderstood me when I said that I would pay more money for NL tools. I said I would pay anywhere from $20-$40 additionally if the tools were packaged into NL. But for someone my age, $220 is way to much to pay for a half-ass emulator. IMO Microsoft did a real shitty job on VP7.

Fine Brtn - then how about you stop complaining and going on and on about this? You don't wanna pay the money, fine, we get it, shut up about it. Geesh, you sound like my 11 year old. As far as some sort of "idol" worship, I think you have misunderstood me. My respect for them comes from proven design and work in this program, something that CANNOT be said for all replying here. So (to anyone this applies to), just continue to rate folks down for using tools, and watch how many nice rates you receive for not using them ...

TConwell i have a question for you...how can people tell that your using tools? like the tracksmoother? and yes people can tell about the auto-flanger thats a given...

It's really easy to tell:
simple smoother: Load the track into CK and turn on the radius graph. If the radius of two segments matches on every vertex except for the transitions from straights / straight bunnyhops to curves, the normal smoother was most likely used (99.99% sure).
elementary: if a loop or helix shows no pumping at all has a consistent radius and just rides like a dream you can be sure either elementary or purgatorium were used. You can get pretty good results without these tools (see my elementpack) but it's very unlikely anyone goes and places all the vertices and handles as exact as I did when I made it (1cm accuracy).
AHG: If the heartline works very good and additionally you have long segments (usually the whole track) where all segmentlengths stay the same, it was AHG. Another thing you could try is to take a banking transition over several vertices, write down the bankingvalues, set them all to 0 and rebank with the known values. Most likely the new track won't ride as smooth as the original allthough the same values were used.

the general rule is that you simply can't build a track by hand that is as smooth as one built with tools (by someone who knows how to use them efficiently) because precision is limited when handbuilding. Placement is limited to 1cm precision and banking to 1?????????. Tools go down to fractions of micrometers (smaller than a hair is thick) and therefor can control the shape way better.

Buster.

You've created a monster.

No way I could have answered it better than Buster, PumpmeUp ... see above.

I used tools on some of my recent tracks and found that using them was time consuming as anything. It is imo alot quicker to build with hand, although the result isn't the same. From my point of view (bearing in mind i suck at using tools ) and also the low level i am using tools, i find the programs to be more like an advanced RCT system. Elementry reallyis a prime example for me. Using basic basic math to plot a section of track and then inserting into your track and repeating the process over and over. Yeah, thats al i got to say, i havn't got the energy to debate

[Oscar]

i havn't got the energy to debate

You've had quite a lenghty vacation, you should have the energy I mean you missed a big one how could you not have energy! That's it, you're fired! I prefer hand building, numbers and buttons annoy me, I do enough of it for .net programming so more buttons and stuff on something that is meant to be fun wont fly with me. Although I've tried it a few times but dlk ghghkbdfj I am tired, too much work

[Brtnboarder495]

Ok I am tired of bitching and debating - rant over.

... and so the betting begins of how long it takes to start up again ... I'll put a shiny sixpence down on 2 weeks.

Takers?

If it was English currency than yes! and i advance you on that bet 25 cent [/irony]

[jayman]

jeez... this is getting old... isn't no limits about simulatindg a rollercoaster on a computer?... i don't give a flying you know what if someone takes a year to build a track or if you can do it in 5 minutes with an amazing understanding of math and programing, i just love rollercoasters and am still just completely stoked about the fact that this sim exsists... THE FINISHED PRODUCT IS WHAT MATTERS. this isn't a game, it's a sim... a good rollercoaster is a good rollercoaster period... sure i build mine by hand, and the only tool i use is the construction kit to rotate my tracks, but this isn't because i think it will amke a better coaster, it's because I HATE MATH, and cannot grasp the concepts that the tools operate on... now i will admit, and not because I*AM a hand builder, that tools coasters come out somewhat generic , but i for one wish i knew how to use them because i know for a fact that this would make my rides better,,,

I should have bet two "days", not two "weeks".

[jayman]

Originally posted by TConwell

Originally posted by Buster

You simply have NO clue what you are talking about. You never sat next to me or Real or Hansixx and actually watched what we do. How on earth do you get the idea that you could judge how much effort went into a ride.

This said... What is wrong with you that you don't just enjoy the rides and judge them for what they are? If a ride is technically perfect, you should rate accordingly.

Buster.

PS @ Brtnboarder495:

quote: " If tools where made available for everyone and were included in NL rather than third party software, I would stop complaining. In fact, I think that third party software should either be included in NL (officialy by the NL team) or eliminated from the world altogether. I would pay extra money if this was done."
and "No mac user has to shut up and if Virtual PC is so cheap - why dont you buy it for me?"

Why don't you go and buy it? You said you would be willing to pay extra money.

You just make no sense boy.

Gouldy and Brtn:
That, my friends, is called being taken to school and getting your butt handed to you in the woodshed. Now, shut up already and let your actions speak instead of your mouths/fingers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAt.j. your southern coloquialisms crack me up, and are incredibly appropriate for discussions like this...

... I had forgotten I had even said that!

[jayman]

oh.. and buster, thank you very much for the helixes in the elements, i use those ALL the time, then i go to side veiw and adjust the highth to make bitchen turns, so yeah, i guess HOORAY FOR TOOLS... then there was that one post where someone pointed out that our development as humans is based on tools. and their uses...
here's my analogy,
Caveman t.j.... "ugg ,look gouldy , spear kill mammoth better than bare hands"
caveman gouldy...."ugg, no, spear cheating......must only kill with bare hands'
cave man t.j. "mmmmmmm mamoth meat yummy...."
caveman gouldy.."uuuugg me HUNGRY. not eat for days, but still not use spear..."
caveman t.j. ..." me full, gouldy dead of no eat....'

[lol][lol][lol][lol][lol]
That's great.

What would that make me though?