[NL] Daemonen

[gouldy]

Hey up, I've just started a Daemonen recreation today and I know the layout well, BUT I'm not sure of a few things, as I'm only working from the pictures of it on RCDB.com.

I need to know a few more things about it if I am to create a completely accurate recreation. I need to know things like the heights of the inversions, because I want them to be exact, not just close to being right. I know the height of the ride and drop and its speed and so on, but if anyone has any additional information or any pictures that aren't on rcdb.com, then could you please leave the info, or links to info in this thread.

Cheers [:)]

I was there last year and rode it 11 times. I took some pictures, and some video footage. The photos are a bout 3megs each. Don't know if I have time to resize them all, but I can see what I can do. If you tell me what you want photos of I can see what I got. I haven't edited any of the footage, so its 7 gigabyte. If you have a lot of time and a large inbox I can send it to you[;)] Also look out for a Pov from Rob Alvey some time. (or ask him to get it when he come back. Explain what your gonna use it for)

Two good sites for scandinavian coasters are www.nojespark.net and www.rchq.net

At www.themeparkdenmark.dk some of the people work at Tivoli. Ask them if they can help you. They got an english board too.

If you need any testers or something I could help you. Anyways good luck. Hope this helped a bit. It isn't the easiest ride to recreate. and just ask if you got some more questions! Looking forward to seing the result.

Sounds great Gouldy. Cant wait to see it. But sorry i dont have any info.

[gouldy]

X is right, its is hard to recreate! I spent 4 hours on trying to get the first helix right yesterday and it still looks wrong somehow. I guess I just gotta stick at it heh heh.

Anyway, X, I'm just going to check out those webpages you've put up and I'll see what I can do with them, if I still need your pictures and video after that, then I'll send you a PM or something [;)]

When his server is up (which its NOT right now) this site has amazing photos and even some video I beleive

http://www.zaniack.dk/


BTW, good luck modeling that by hand No really, youll need it.

[Brtnboarder495]

Yea that looks pretty dam twisted, I find it amazing how they fit that coaster in so small space.

[gouldy]

cheers Real.

And yeah, I know what you mean, so far its been pretty damn difficult. The top of the drop is bugging me at the moment, its damn hard to get right.

http://nldc.interfix.net/p669

Thats what I've done so far, a lot of it isn't right yet, but it will be, it WILL BE damnit!

I would like to (even though you wont) advise you to not heartline anything, just make it smooth. Then use the AHG to heartline.

This track is just far too intricate for you to come as close as I think you even want too without the aid.

For Instance: The switchback at the top before the drop

Yours: http://nldc.interfix.net/i3939 Very gradual - look at spine
http://www.coastersandmore.com/pic/daem ... nen21g.jpg Much sharper transition


Plus just look at the shaping on the Immelman and entrance to Zero G
http://www.coastersandmore.com/pic/daem ... nen80g.jpg

Entering the Immelman, the track itself (not the riders) starts right, then weaves left then back right. Of course, its all relative to the banking which keeps the riders at the optimal heartlined position, but its little things like this that IMO make or break a recreation.


This could be quite possibly one of the most twisted B&M's on the planet. Its amazing they even could use a Zero G that low. Im sure its got its own unique feeling as well.

[gouldy]

I won't use tools Real. I have my own method and I know none of it is correct yet. I have methods to achieving the same effect as you do with tools. That transition segment before the first helix will be broken up into 4 segment which will be individually moved and banked until it is correct. You don't need to tools to achieve extremely realistic track shaping you know, all you have to have is a lot of time on yor hands and since I've now finished school ...... I have! This is going to take a LONG time to do, but its will be as close to correct as I can possibly do. The zero g roll is the bit that I'm dreading, but I'll deal with it when I get there.

So far I'm finding it extremely difficult, but that is the entire reason why I picked this ride to recreate, I knew it would be absolutely solid to do and although its been hard, the 7 hours I've spent on it have been enjoyable.

That zero g roll though flipping heck, I think its going to have about 20 segments of track in it if I want to get it right, its going to take so long to do, but I'm actually looking forward to it, because when its finished, I'll just be so happy to have done it .... if I do it well, then I'll know unto myself that I can do anything!

I'm not really trying build it 100% accurately at this point in time, simply because for me that is impossible right now, on this computer it would be hard to build a 10% accurate recreation of this ride. My new computer should be here this summer as a birthday present, when that does happen, is when I'll really start to do this ride up and make it all as close to the real thing as possible.

Still while I'm here, any further information is welcome [:)]

It will take more than 20 to achieve a realistic roll. But how then to you enter and exit to that? Your segments would be pretty small and indeally you want ALL of your track to feature similar segment lenghts - to avoid conroll issues and jerks that happen with bezeirs. If you use 5ft segments there, youll need 5-7 everywhere else. Even a 5ft section connecting to a 10ft section will show a nasty jerk on a track that has NO straight sections on it whatsoever.

Its just not mathematically possible. You are restricted by the nature of the bezier controls. any Zero G needs to be made of no less than 32 based on mathematical equations that Ive read about concerning errors and such.


Id say, even the greatest hand builder can only come to about 75% realism of a real ride depending upon the ride.


Even if you had a super computer, it doesnt matter. Theres no hand building techniques that can override the fact that you need segments under 5ft to acheive something similar to that ride, thats for sure. The transitions are too tight and too quick.

I commend your courage and I commend your will to do this by hand, but I dont think youll end up with a result that will even be pleasing to you. Just understand without the AHG, its impossible to recreate any B&M element unless you can move and bank verticies at the precision of under 8ft. (Real life is around 3ft I think redunz. came up with)



Dont think Im trying to bring up the whole tools thing either. Its just math. Theres no way around it and unfortunatly the bezeirs prevent you from attaining it - its mathematically impossible. If you designed the ride without heartlines but got it perfectly smooth and banked correctly, you already accomplished a great feat.

Be open, dont be so thick skulled


One more thing - Your predrop is way off. I think the number I came up with (using pictures and sizing trains to various points of importance) is 6ft from the top of the track in the editor to the top of the track at base of dip. (rail to rail difference of 6ft)

Grrrrr! i wanted to be the first person to have a Daemonen recreation!

More pictures:
http://freizeitparkweb.de/cgi-bin/dcf/d ... ewmode=all

Layout Here:
http://www.coasterclub.org/fd/articles/ ... ndex.shtml

Tons more pictures:
http://www.nojespark.net/tivdaemonen/index.php


You better get going, you are making me want to recreate it.

[gouldy]

Yeah, I know about the predrop, I did the whole of the lift at first without actually looking at the ride, only remembering what I had seen before, that has since been changed though [;)]

And its not impossible to achieve the exact same effect as tool building with hand buidling, just very close to impossible . Because tracks done with tools are made up from track nodes just the same as the track nodes that you use when you hand build, nothing about the sim has magically changed, its just made loads more nodes that are perfectly correct in where they are placed. If you were a ridiculously good builder, then you could do it 5ft track segment by 5ft track segment, but it would be next to impossible, but not impossible [;)].

I have accepted though now that I am going to have to use tools for this if I am to get the level of accuracy I want, but I am going to use them minimally. I will do a version completely by hand and a version from that, using tools. I will then probably only upload the tooled version, but I will just feel a bit happier within myself that I have done a version by hand aswell.

All you need to do for using the AHG is DO NOT HEARTLINE the ride. Do your normal thing, make it uber smooth just dont heartline it. You will have done 90% of the hard work. The other 10% is handled by the AHG. If you could make the AHG output a track thats as close to the real thing as I think you can, you will have won the battle.



Also, about the segment thing. Its still impossible. Why? Because the AHG creates the nodes based on your track you already made. However, when it tweaks them into the track slightly its moving them in incriments that you cant do with the NL Editor. The level of precision is too low, even if your snap is off and incriments are moved to the smallest degree.


Just remember you need to put as much effort into it as normal. It still needs to be awesome before heartlining for the AHG to work how its supposed too.


Make sure you check out the links above.

a few notes on "possibilities" of hand building...

The NL editor (as of current V.1.55) is limited to input of 0.01m lenght accuracy and 1 deg of banking angle. This can not even be overcome by using the vertex panel. (it does round to 2 decimal pts.)

The estimated required segment lenght for "tight B&M" elements seems to be about right at the lower limit of NL itself (which is ~ 0.75m per segment). You may even "underride" this down to 0.5m and the sim will AFAIK handle it.

According to Walter Bolliger ( http://www.thrillnetwork.com/stories_view.php/978 ) B&M is currently manufacturing an 1/16 of an inch (= 1.6 mm). This naturaly implies that the initial calculations should be way more precise.

According to the "Stengel Book", the very first track based on higher order polynomials in the world (Z-Force, 1985, http://rcdb.com/id126.htm ) had banking calculations per 0.5 m of track path. We might safely assume that this has become more accurate since...

Technical Conclusion: unless you don't write the most precise vertex and banking data right into some element or track file, you're quite off. way off in fact. Funny thing though: NL will in fact accept more accurate values, just not with hand-editing.

BUT: IMO there is no "wrong way" to create a track, as well as there is no "right way" either. It all depends on *your* personal balance of skills, effort and desired results. I'll always say "anything goes", from handcrafting to pure math and back again, as long as you're happy with it.

And i have deep respect for anyone "coming close" by handbuilding, for i do know how hard it can be.

redunzelizer

1/16th of an inch? Yea, thats come a long way. Thats insane.

[Kev]

Gouldy, your tracks have always been amazing. I'm sure this one will be just as amazing, no matter how you go about building it.

[gouldy]

cheers kev [;)]

I am though, going to have to put this project on hold for now, I can't possibly go into the deatil that I want to go into, using this computer, to complete this project I do actually have to wait for a new computer. The main problem being that I can't actually tell whether or not the track is smooth and as the amount of track segments piles up my computer slows down majorly when I try to change a track node. Ahwell, it was fun while it lasted . It shouldn't be TOO long before I get my new computer now though, so keep an eye out for this topic in the coming months [;)]

Originally posted by Real

When his server is up (which its NOT right now) this site has amazing photos and even some video I beleive

http://www.zaniack.dk/


BTW, good luck modeling that by hand No really, youll need it.

Zaniak is a member at www.themeparkdenmark.dk. I'm sure he'll send you the pictures if you ask him[;)]

Originally posted by Real


Tons more pictures:
http://www.nojespark.net/tivdaemonen/index.php

Same site I linked too[:p]

www.themeparkdenmark.dk has posted a D?????????monen video. It contains some Pov footage. Check it out when you get back to this prodject again[:)]