Same Sex Marriage?

Originally posted by Real

You are obviously too blinded and too thick to see the message - you only see the text.

Nothing more needs to be said about minicoopertx ... one sentence, no arguments needed, how simple can that message be? Kinda like the simple message of Jesus Christ ... Sometimes it is best to not even bother having to argue with a time-waster.

You see, I am the Pastor of a church. If you want to argue and debate in person, give me a call sometime or better yet come on down to my church and we can chat. Stop hiding behind a computer screen and let's see if we cannot further understand one another. I am sick of tired of folks barely through puberty and or life trying to act knowledgeable ... it is sad and truly, at the heart of this nation's perpetual weakness.

I cannot help you or anyone else potty train, but I can point out where you have made a mess on the floor. Clean it up minicooper, it is embarrassing. Your lack of knowledge is pretty bland, but not uncommon. There is good news though, I was once as lost and stubborn, and could not see the connection either - so if I can do it, anyone can.

---> By the way, anyone ever tell you that from a distance you look like Freddy Mercury? I hope no offense is taken, but man, it is the first thought I had when I saw your website. <---

Real, you have explained this quite well, so I will not bother adding onto what you have said, except to say:

Proverbs 17:28:

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. (NIV)

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. (KJV)

Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive. (NKJV)

Even a fool, when he keeps quiet, is thought to be wise. When he closes his lips, he is thought of as a man of understanding. (NLV)

Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is considered prudent. (NASB)

In my eyes, those different versions and translations all seem pretty "consistent" to me, eh?

Coaster -- fair enough on your points. It is sad though, that somewhere it was decided that a church had to do a wedding for it to be "recognized". I did not decide that, but I will uphold that tradition (it is a tradition, not a law). However, if you can convince a judge to marry you, go for it man, I don't have time to stand outside and protest.

[hyyyper]

i thought this was a topic about gay marraige, not about some christain guys writing down some things about fools...

but anyways, my view on this is that people should be able to mary humans from both sexes, a person should decide for themselves who to marry, not god, not jezus, no one but him/herself (and afcourse the one that he/she will be marrieing with)

Originally posted by hyyyper

i thought this was a topic about gay marraige, not about some christain guys writing down some things about fools... but anyways, my view on this is that people should be able to mary humans from both sexes, a person should decide for themselves who to marry, not god, not jezus, no one but him/herself (and afcourse the one that he/she will be marrieing with)

Cut and paste your posts into Word and run a spell check before posting this nonsense man -- it is free.

^He hardly didn't speell anything worng now did he!?

^ ... sure enough

Minicooper - just to clarify if any is needed, Im not trying to wage some invisible war here. PRobably seems that way with Tcon right behind me in posts there...

But I think its a tragedy when Christians (or those who call themselves that) dont even understand the basic principals of what Jesus teaches. I consider myself on a loose end of the spectrum because I leave alot of scripture open to different interpretations. I feel that God speaks differently through the same passages to different people - sometimes the same person even. A single line can mean multiple things.

However, I still think alot of it also has one set meaning. You can translate it however you want, into however many languages and words but the meaning remains the same. The Bible is to be taken both literally and figurativly. If you dont take it literally its not serious enough for you but if you cant take it also metaphorically and figurativly sometimes, then you arent open to Gods word which can speak in any way it pleases.


Sadly in this world we think we have gotten so much more supreme and so much more intelligent which - in a way we have. Yet, I think we have regressed in many areas. Its an incredibly hard concept for this culture to accept that something can be taken both figurativly and literally. To the rest of the world, its one or the other. Sadly, it shows a lack growth of the human mind connected to the heart. Just like the seperation of church and state, we have seperated the heart from the mind.


And we all know, medically, what happens if you seperate one from the other. The same ends up happening in our lives apart from the medical aspect when both are not connected.

Originally posted by Real

Minicooper - just to clarify if any is needed, Im not trying to wage some invisible war here. Probably seems that way with Tcon right behind me in posts there...

I agree - I am not attempting to do this either - please understand that.

Who is gay here then?

im hetrosexual but i dont mind being friends with gay men/women.

Im gay and love it [:)]

Coaster i agree with you man. I dont care about gay marriage being in a church, as long as we have as equal rights as possible at this moment in time, i dont care.

To be fair, Real, Tcon, i know you believe what you are saying deeply, but i dont think its fair to almost cast aside Minicoopers arguements. He made alot of points which actually made sense to me.

One that i agree with is:

Here is EVERYTHING that Jesus ever said about homosexuality:

[ ]

Did you get that? NOTHING. He never said a word about it, one way or the other.

The bible, is written by man. The opinions shown towards homosexuality at the time, were by man, not Jesus, or God. So why does the whole religion follow it? Just because of the bible. I myself dont have enough faith to believe a book written by men, edited by men, published by men, expressing the thoughts and word of God. I respect you guys for having that much faith, its just really not for me. Again, im not really argueing, and dont intend too, because it gets you nowhere. Just making my wonderings known.

I am sick of tired of folks barely through puberty and or life trying to act knowledgeable ...

I kind of have a problem with this. Its a little stereotypical. Sure, its probably correct for the majority, but there are a minority who its not true for.

Originally posted by jpecool

The bible, is written by man. The opinions shown towards homosexuality at the time, were by man, not Jesus, or God. So why does the whole religion follow it? Just because of the bible. I myself dont have enough faith to believe a book written by men, edited by men, published by men, expressing the thoughts and word of God.

jpe, 2 Tim 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Yes, obviously, man physically wrote it. It is not like a pen appeared from the desk and moved on it's own, although if that had happened for real we would have scores of folks stating for a fact that it was on wires or magnetized somehow, right?

And of course, we would have those like me worshipping the pen.

However, that is not the issue. What is the issue is that God inspired it -- through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. We are getting into some deep doctrine here and I can hang for as long as you can stay awake, but some may not want to travel down this road.

Originally posted by jpecool

I am sick of tired of folks barely through puberty and or life trying to act knowledgeable ...

I kind of have a problem with this. Its a little stereotypical. Sure, its probably correct for the majority, but there are a minority who its not true for.

I cannot make a blanket statement of the world, but I can speak from what I have witnessed with my own eyes, get it? [approve]

[Brtnboarder495]

Does it matter if it was 5 loaves or 7 loaves? Did it not show a miracle?

To me, yes, because when you have four different people, that incorrectly mention a detail so simple such as a low number, it just makes one think that it is truly made up.

Oh and the scripts they found recently were have said to have proven Judas as not a betrayer of Jesus, so ... yea, just more evangelists contradicting themselves?

Not evangelists, but a totally different group of people who are bent on contradicting Christianity. I cant remember the group and their name, but they are responsible for an etire set of gospels. Each of them written HUNDREDS of years after the originals. So, if you want to get on this "logic" trip, add that to your list. If you wont believe documents written only a few decades after they occured, why are ones written HUNDREDS of years suddenly valid? eh?

As I said, each one of the writers wrote to a particular audience. I havent done a complete ton of research but I am fairly certain each one included what they did for a certain reason. I am also sure that them using a different number also was a direct influence of their background and what audience they were teaching.


Also, considering there were so many of them, I easily would believe they possibly just got the wrong number. Its not like they were off by more than a few. Had one said 10 and the other 5...that would be an issue.


You cant use logic for everything. It will fail you. As I said before, and Ill keep saying, the Bible is both metaphorical and literal.


Plus, if the was nothing but a literal book, it wouldnt have nearly the same life changing effect.

[jayman]

Originally posted by Brtnboarder495

Does it matter if it was 5 loaves or 7 loaves? Did it not show a miracle?

To me, yes, because when you have four different people, that incorrectly mention a detail so simple such as a low number, it just makes one think that it is truly made up.

Oh and the scripts they found recently were have said to have proven Judas as not a betrayer of Jesus, so ... yea, just more evangelists contradicting themselves?

first of all.. i'm with you here, but you need to come up with a better reason.. if you and 3 other people witnessed a car wreck that was caused by a few rocks being thrown at a passing car , you might say 5 rocks, and the other guys might say 3.. still there was a major pile up.. i'm just preparing you for the type of counterpoint you'll be sure to recieve. i too believe that the bible was compiled by people who wanted to get a point across, that many of the stories were either invented or exagerated to get everyone on the same page.. or else...yes i do think that the contradictions in the bible present a credibility gap, but trying to tell people who have faith in christ that he didn't do miracles is a waste of time..
i try really hard to keep stuff like this personal,one of the biggest challenges i've faced in life has been accepting that people believe these things,and that their minds cannot be changed. i felt like i should let you know that i know from lots of experience that no matter what you are not going to get someone to question their faith with arguments like this, and you'll find it alot less frustrating not to bother to try.. by simply believing these things they are not doing anything that hurts anyone , and besides, believing in someone like jesus can't possibly be something so horrible that you should feel like you have to change their mind... ..

[Coasterkidmwm]

I don't get how you guys can follow a book when all conflicting viewpoints from the same time era or viewpoints written by women are magically left out with no explanation whatsoever. Everything was written at least 50 years after it happened, enough be ludicrously exagerrated.

[jayman]

no , not magicaly left out.. intentionaly left out. it was written and compiled in a time when men ruled,people thought the world was flat, and that there wasn't anyone on the other side of the ocean (it says "circle of the earth, not sphere) and independent thought and literacy weren't exactly common things, and certainly not encouraged for the underclasses. it's my personal belief that the bible was intended to keep people from thinking too much, like alot of religious texts. i've read the bible through , and while i certainly don't believe in alot of it, i wouldn't come out and call it all bullshit, and i certainly couldn't call people who do believe in it idiots in good conscience..

Originally posted by hot rod

I don't care, as long as two gay guys don't make out if front of me. Lesbians are pretty nice though.

In the Bible, it says it is an abomination against God. Why would God deliberatly make an abomination with satans help of authority?

[Coasterkidmwm]

Are lesbians mentioned in the Bible?

[jayman]

yeah.. but remember that more focus is always going to be placed on gay men because like you said before it was pretty much all compiled and written by men.. in a society like that (heck even in ours) gay men are more of a threat so they get more mention. there is mention somewhere about women who had rejected men and had "likenessess" to substitue for them, when i was a kid i never got it, i thought they were worshiping idols of certain animals. but i think that's what they were aluding to.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

I don't get how you guys can follow a book when all conflicting viewpoints from the same time era or viewpoints written by women are magically left out with no explanation whatsoever. Everything was written at least 50 years after it happened, enough be ludicrously exagerrated.

30 years. And thats just when it was finished. Much of it could have been written along the way in notes and journals. Its not like one day they sat down and wrote out the entire book.

Use some common sense now


Quite frankly, when Im 50 it wont be that hard to write about when I was 20. And if the events that took place during that time happened to me, it would be even easier. However, I think exagerated isnt a good word to use as I dont think their intents were malice. Nor do I think any of it was just straight made up.

Reading the bible means nothing. You have to study it. There are crazy and stunning similarities that come up when you study it. Ill dig a few up and have my pastor tell me a few. I was quite amazed when the old light bulb went off in my head.

Originally posted by Brtnboarder495

Oh and the scripts they found recently were have said to have proven Judas as not a betrayer of Jesus, so ... yea, just more evangelists contradicting themselves?

Brtn, the "books" you are attempting to reference are actually all enclosed in one book recently published called "The Gnostic Gospels", which were actually used by Dan Brown to write "The DaVinci Code". Sadly though, even Dan Brown admits these books were written in the second century - hence giving more weight that his book is fiction - but here is more.

Now, go with me here. It claims that (for example) "The Gospel according to Thomas (or Mary, or Judas)" talks all about Judas' betrayal and how it may have not gone down as thought -- even though 4 separate men all told the same story in the Bible. But you see, all (and I do mean ALL) Biblical historians agree these gnostic gospels were written in the mid-2nd century. And, so here, is some simple math for you:

1. If a century is 100 years long
2. Jesus did factually die (this is a well proven fact) in 33 AD
3. Thomas claims to have written about Jesus

How old would Thomas have been in order to write this "gospel" if he was already around my age when he was with Jesus? One hundred thirty three? Nah, I don't think so. Besides that, even if he was, why wait so long to write things down? You'd expect him to write immediately to be sure he got his facts right.

Second problem: The gospel of Judas is included in these gnostic gospels as well. Shortly after (about a week) Jesus was betrayed, Judas hung himself. When did he find the time to write his gospel?

The third problem is that these gnostic gospels reference things that were not in existence in Rome, Persia, or anywhere else until mid-second century - thus, giving weight to these books being false testimonies.

You see, it is simple. When you start matching things up with proven and recorded facts throughout history (and not only in the Bible), they just fall apart. Call me a historical detective if you must ... but I love this stuff.

I really would like to recommend the 2 (two) sermons I did on "The DaVinci Code" available here: www.bbcmarbury.com/Sermons.htm They may REALLY help you understand the gnostic gospels, as well as shining some light on this area. These sermons are NOT preaching sermons, they are teaching lessons -- which means as I did them, there were pens flying all over the notebooks. Each file is about 30-40 minutes.

By the way, the word "gnostic" is defined as: a belief system that flousrished in Hellenistic culture. It had a profound influence on Christianity, particularly in the Johannine tradition (i.e., the gospel of John, the letters of John, the gospel of Thomas). Gnostics held that the physical world of matter was corrupt and evil, and that salvation could be attained only through the embracing of the eternal goodness of the spiritual. In so doing, they wholly denied the human dimensions of Jesus Christ, even to the point of saying that Jesus, as a purely spiritual entity, only "appeared" to suffer on the cross. Gnosticism was therefore declared a heresy in the 4th century CE Christian church.

Source: http://staff.jccc.net/thoare/glossary.htm

Originally posted by Real

Use some common sense now

I wonder how many times you will have to hint at, and say this directly, Real.

^Thus why the Gnostic Gospels are some of the biggest farce ever.

And if you then say, well, maybe they screwed up "dating" those books, then you have to throw out all dating of historical scripts that werent already predated in the text (but still can be faked).


The Gnostic Gospels are a funny bit of reading at best. If you think the real Bible has holes, then you would clearly have to see that the Gnostic ones are more holey than Englands defense right now (a man down).

-- What gets me is how they seek to make Jesus look totally divine, and then try to use them with the bible to say he was not really divine, but partially human -- but they hope no one catches on. A very funny read for certain. More holes than England's defense ... kinda like Dan Brown's novel ....

"Coaster -- fair enough on your points. It is sad though, that somewhere it was decided that a church had to do a wedding for it to be "recognized". I did not decide that, but I will uphold that tradition (it is a tradition, not a law). However, if you can convince a judge to marry you, go for it man, I don't have time to stand outside and protest."



yay! someone understands me! lol..

now: about the bible.

who cares?! we're not talking religion here, we're talking law and politics. if your particular religion agrees to marry gay people, then that's great and all but it still doesnt get us those equal rights. i honestly dont know why the bible and religion was brought up with this issue. like i said, it's a legal issue, not a religious one.

Originally posted by coaster992001

who cares?! we're not talking religion here, we're talking law and politics. if your particular religion agrees to marry gay people, then that's great and all but it still doesnt get us those equal rights. i honestly dont know why the bible and religion was brought up with this issue. like i said, it's a legal issue, not a religious one.

I agree ... accept for a few simple thoughts. We have a law that says Murder is a crime. Where did that come from? We have another law that says Stealing is a crime. Where did that come from? We have another law that says Lying is a crime (that would be perjury for those seeking to be idiots here). Where did that come from? You see, what most do not want to admit -- is that our most basic laws came from the 10 Commandments. Therefore, seperating them (although it has been tried hot and heavy since the 60s), is not as easy as it sounds. THAT is why we have a hard time divorcing religion from the law.

oh i completely agree, religion does have a lot of sence in it. making murder illegal just plain makes sence. but when the religion is used in a descriminatory way to prevent people from getting certain rights i think that's just wrong.